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NEWLY discovered DIEBOLD chance DESCRIBED AS 'main national safety chance'!

READER comments ON"NEWLY found out DIEBOLD danger DESCRIBED AS 'fundamental country wide safety risk'!"(120 Responses up to now...)

comment #1 [Permalink]... The historical Turk talked about on 5/5/2006 @ 1:47 pm PT...

Brad,.. and BradBlog contributors Bless you,...

news,... information ,.... news,...

your miles ahead of the MSM.

This Fascist executive is imploding,....

comment #2 [Permalink]... anonymous said on 5/5/2006 @ 2:08 pm PT...

the wall of deceit is crumbling down,....

comment #three [Permalink]... bluebear 2 spoke of on 5/5/2006 @ three:02 pm PT...

Gosh, i'm bidding on the construction of a Jericho Coffe condo. Hmmm Jericho - how apropos.

remark #four [Permalink]... Savantster referred to on 5/5/2006 @ 3:15 pm PT...

Ahh.. these Christian Republicans! gotta love how they love to legislate morality... for others..

remark #5 [Permalink]... Savantster mentioned on 5/5/2006 @ three:15 pm PT...

bah! incorrect damn thread.. lol.. figures..

comment #6 [Permalink]... bluebear 2 observed on 5/5/2006 @ 3:43 pm PT...

i am ready, i am waiting, cannot wait to peer what this is - hoping it is big enough to boot them out of California for 06/06/06 as well as in every single place else! send them down the highway continuously!

remark #7 [Permalink]... The historical Turk mentioned on 5/5/2006 @ three:46 pm PT...

remark #eight [Permalink]... TaterSalad pointed out on 5/5/2006 @ four:11 pm PT...

Brad ... you're marvelous!!!!!!

remark #9 [Permalink]... bluebear 2 stated on 5/5/2006 @ 4:21 pm PT...

old Turk #7

splendid music - I started feeling fairly sick - thought it was the photographs scrolling down however then realized it changed into the americans in the pictures themselves that became turning my stomach.

comment #10 [Permalink]... bluebear 2 said on 5/5/2006 @ 4:31 pm PT...

"That file Checked the Leon County hack, and located 16 other bugs described as "a greater bad family unit of vulnerabilities" which "go smartly past" what become found in Leon County."

And California Sec. of State Bruce McPherson licensed the rattling issues anyway.

comment #11 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman pointed out on 5/5/2006 @ 4:50 pm PT...


i am that PA former election dircetor that Catherine and Bev had been telling you about. I have one small correction for you from your story. Pennsylvania has no desktop-based mostly early balloting, most effective paper absentee ballots, so there is time except 7:00AM may additionally sixteen unless the first votes are solid on TSx machines.

Repeat: No "early vote casting" exists in PA.

V. Kurt Bellman

comment #12 [Permalink]... Lewis said on 5/5/2006 @ 4:56 pm PT...

Diebold......We're on to you.................

comment #13 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills talked about on 5/5/2006 @ 5:08 pm PT...

Thanks, Mr. Bellman. Please help keep Pennsylvania free from electoral crooks.

comment #14 [Permalink]... The ancient Turk referred to on 5/5/2006 @ 5:13 pm PT...

Mr Bellman,... welcome aboard,....

THX for the input.

comment #15 [Permalink]... bvac stated on 5/5/2006 @ 5:39 pm PT...

and the way are those paper absentee ballots counted?

remark #16 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman observed on 5/5/2006 @ 6:08 pm PT...


"and the way are these paper absentee ballots counted? "

i hope you have an appreciation for irony, because in most counties that should be the usage of DRE's on Election Day, the paper absentee ballots should be hand counted, at the precinct.

just a few counties might also have opted for optical scan, however beneath PA legislations it will make no feel, due to the fact that the absentee ballots ought to rely on the precinct, and that might add precinct scanners cost on suitable of the cost of DRE's.

For these counties which are the use of optical scan on the precinct for Election Day votes (possibly with DRE or AutoMark for accessibility instances), the absentee ballots should be delivered to their precinct scans on the end of the nighttime.

Philadelphia County is still getting away with centrally counting absentee ballots, but no one else in PA can work out how. It looks to be unlawful. I suppose it has something to do with Philadelphia attorneys.

comment #17 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman referred to on 5/5/2006 @ 6:sixteen pm PT...

To Robert Rockwell Mills,

I hope I may promise you that I may have a good deal influence on "the crooks", however i'm not an Election Director, and that i am simply a private citizen, and there's a much better than even opportunity that by using November, i'll be an Alabaman.

besides, considering that I do not live in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh, in line with James Carville, i may think right at home.

"Pennsylvania is basically Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between." - James Carville


remark #18 [Permalink]... colleenmilitarymom mentioned on 5/5/2006 @ 6:22 pm PT...

O BOY. kEEPUP THE respectable WORK.

comment #19 [Permalink]... Peg C noted on 5/5/2006 @ 6:25 pm PT...

I consider i can wager what that "horrifying" household of vulnerabilities might also entail. I envisioned it on Nov. three, 2004. wouldn't it's amazing to be capable of relax the paranoia about whatever so primary, so simple, so very important to the workings of our country as vote casting?

Welcome, V. Kurt Bellman, to the hair-pullers' membership at BradBlog! And thanks for the reassuring info.

comment #20 [Permalink]... Catherine a noted on 5/5/2006 @ 6:27 pm PT...

it's price bringing up right here that the Utah investigation of the TSx changed into geared up by way of BBV, paid for with the aid of BBV, and used supply code offered by BBV. Bruce Funk took courageous motion to make this feasible, as did Ion Sancho last 12 months in Florida.

As Bev Harris posted right here on the previous BradBlog story, BBV can be guaranteeing that all jurisdictions the use of the Diebold TS or TSx will receive full technical stories containing targeted guidance for election administrators on ALL possible movements that will also be taken to mitigate the possibility.

This dissemination will turn up instantly once the record is entire. So don't are expecting your local election reputable to grasp anything else about these vulnerabilities yet. in my opinion, i would somewhat the election officers get the information before Diebold does, seeing as how Diebold likes to send its technicians around the country changing gadget without be aware.

considering the fact that the report with the entire fundamental mitigations continues to be being written, election officials will need to cling on tight for a couple of extra days. in any other case they'd be making assumptions in response to incomplete advice, which is the remaining aspect necessary at this aspect. Even Michael Shamos does not yet have the total photograph.

None of those moves would were feasible with out BBV's contributors, who are the unsung heros during this story. They should consider pleased with what their generosity has achieved: regularly and systematically uncovering specific, strong evidence of significant vulnerabilities to the united states's balloting techniques, proposing tips and suggestions to election officials, and helping citizens take beneficial action of their personal communities. For a small corporation BBV packs a mighty punch.

Brad deserves super compliments for his skill to doggedly maintain this problem within the highlight and for being such a good communicator.

remark #21 [Permalink]... Peg C stated on 5/5/2006 @ 6:47 pm PT...

I supposed to assert "the hair tearers' membership." No, we do not assault every other's pig-tails!

and that i 2nd Catherine A's kudos and because of Brad. first-rate work!

comment #22 [Permalink]... fusion pointed out on 5/5/2006 @ 6:47 pm PT...

should say to all: tremendous Work!

remark #23 [Permalink]... Brad noted on 5/5/2006 @ 7:00 pm PT...

V. Kurt Bellman -

Welcome, and thanks for the clarification in re: early voting in PA. i'll are trying to amend the article for clarity there appropriate away.

comment #24 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman talked about on 5/5/2006 @ 7:02 pm PT...

Peg C,

I received your which means in the first area.

before you go canonizing me, within the activity of full disclosure, you'll want to understand:

1) i'm a Republican, although less of 1 than I once became.

2) I do not consider 2004's election became stolen, besides the fact that children 2000's arguably variety of become. (until you determine into your 2004 calculation that G.W. Bush will not have been on the ballot if his "loss" in 2000 had been upheld.)

three) I don't consider there is a bit of election hardware that can store Rick Santorum until western PA Democrats decide that having a Pittsburgh area Senator is greater essential than having a Democrat one.

4) I do not consider an awful lot of what I read on ideological blogs, and i examine essentially exclusively "mainstream" media.

5) I actually admire Dr. Michael Ian Shamos, Doug Lewis of the Election core, and MOST state and county election directors I've ever met.

6) there is a paperless electronic vote casting computing device that I definitely think is "the bee's knees." or not it's one few of you've got heard of.

7) I used to think that "election reformers" were primarily nutcases, but no longer any further.

eight) I used to lump Bev Harris in that, too, and that i as soon as had some fairly unkind issues to claim about her, and her people.

9) i'm greater worried about what might also occur from electronic vote casting than i am with anything that has already came about to this point, and

10) I actually like discussing these issues even with individuals who disagree with me, as a result of it really is how human beings be taught.

remark #25 [Permalink]... KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA talked about on 5/5/2006 @ 7:16 pm PT...

Lie informed, On grasp.

Diebold? No gold.they'll die cold.The unused machines will eco-friendly with mildew.Bankrupted, their property will be offered!In penal complex, execs ought to do as they are informed.Molesting inmates will make certain they get rolled.(whatever, something) of their bottom fold.

Diebold is finished, their machines should not used in November's elections.

Now onto the different Conservative owned E-voting desktop companies that also pose an incredible country wide security chance!

Bye, bye paperless E-balloting machines!

Bye bye Bush/Cheney dictator wannabees!

Helllloooooo IMPEACHMENTS!!!!!


comment #26 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 said on 5/5/2006 @ 7:32 pm PT...

V. Kurt Bellman spoke of:

"I truly like discussing these concerns even with individuals who disagree with me, because it is how human beings study."

this is exactly the feeling of most americans here, I trust,however you are going to on no account persuade the trolls!

Thanks on your imput.

comment #27 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 spoke of on 5/5/2006 @ 7:36 pm PT...


Anybobdy have a clue what's up with uncooked Story?

i have been getting a clean reveal with "currently expecting resolution...." in the true nook for the ultimate four hours or so.

remark #28 [Permalink]... KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA referred to on 5/5/2006 @ 7:36 pm PT...

...V. Kurt Bellman pointed out on 5/5/2006 @ 7:02pm PT...

1) i am a Republican

2) I don't agree with 2004's election became stolen

6) "the bee's knees."


That need to be what they call, religion based mostly voting results. right here's how it works:

Yo, Bees on the knees!Make the signal of the go.Then tally the tainted outcomes.don't fret about moral delimmas,because laterwe'll sprinkleour Jesus backed,Republican winnerswith holier than thou water!

(complements of the Hellsaburpin$one thousand,000,000.01 impurity equipment)

comment #29 [Permalink]... KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA observed on 5/5/2006 @ 7:41 pm PT...

...Bluebear2 pointed out on 5/5/2006 @ 7:36pm PT...


Anybobdy have a clue what's up with uncooked Story?


I told them no longer to get their new servers from Diebold.

may it's a Rethug hack attack?

remark #30 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 talked about on 5/5/2006 @ 7:48 pm PT...


"I informed them now not to get their new servers from Diebold."LOL

"could or not it's a Rethug hack attack?"Hmmmmm ?

remark #31 [Permalink]... laura stated on 5/5/2006 @ 7:49 pm PT...

I got the equal message at uncooked story. hello thanks Brad, okay everyone if you need this splendid reporting to proceed,aid aid Brad and his sleuthing.

comment #32 [Permalink]... colinjames referred to on 5/5/2006 @ 7:57 pm PT...

One aspect no one right here has outlined is the negative man from Utah, soon to be an election martyr... pure atrocity this man is getting the boot for in reality doing his job- conserving the sanctity of the vote- and therefore the very basis of our democracy. commonplace these days. And Mr. Bellman, while i admire your candidness, make sure to at least agree with the chance that the election '04 become stolen, there may be adequate facts there, I consider- i might like to run via it for you, but I've got to go... will somebody please direct this man to the suitable resources? I smell a Republican refugee in the making. This story might blow up, let's see if MSM hops on board (yeah appropriate)... you may all the time hope! Die, Diebold, DIE! And lengthy live Brad, Bev, and everybody else devoid of whom this counsel could by no means floor... Adios!

remark #33 [Permalink]... Brad observed on 5/5/2006 @ 7:fifty nine pm PT...

V. Kurt Bellman - Even after your caveats (and perhaps specially *because* of them!) Kurt, I say as soon as again, welcome. i am delighted you might be here and hope you're going to stick round!

Bluebear2 - They switched servers nowadays to a quicker one, nevertheless it's taking time for the brand new IP propigate. John Byrne, managing editor, isn't a very chuffed boy these days.

remark #34 [Permalink]... awaken...i do know, cliched now, however most effective beause americans are dull referred to on 5/5/2006 @ 8:23 pm PT...

someone wrote:

1) i'm a Republican, even though much less of 1 than I as soon as become.

so that you stand for individuals who sell america out to the european banking households and who reply to questions about aforementioned field with silence and arrest.

You have to be a very small man indeed.

gain knowledge of this:http://www.prisonplanet....050506askingquestion.htm

comment #35 [Permalink]... Catherine a said on 5/5/2006 @ eight:29 pm PT...

This story maintains growing to be and becoming. this is just out on BBV, including yet more enticing details:

Posted on Friday, may additionally 05, 2006 - 07:52 pm:

Utah notified of TSx issue, punished official who found itThis week, the state of Pennsylvania sequestered all Diebold touch-displays to put into effect an emergency security measure. a number of greater states are expected to follow.

The state of Utah has well-known that a essential protection chance exists in its Diebold TSx touch-screens, however selected to punish the courageous public reputable accountable for picking out the defect as a substitute of taking any efforts to be trained what the issue is and proper it.

below is a hyperlink to the security alert faxed to the Utah Lt. Governor, state elections director, Emery County lawyer and Emery County commissioners on March 24.

security alert - Diebold TSxAn Open Letter To The administrators Of The Emery County govt.doc (35.three okay)

Shoot the messengerUtah officers disregarded the warning utterly, and as a substitute flew Diebold attorneys to Emery County on the governor's plane, where the Diebold lawyers were allowed to sit into a private executive session. during this session, a decision seems to were made to lock Emery County Elections director Bruce Funk out of his office.

In Utah, the law requires that any employment decision be publicly seen (it become now not) and the county attorney is the distinctive assistance for county elections officers (County attorney David Blackwell chose to facet with Diebold towards Bruce Funk). according to a tape recording of the general public portion of the meeting, Bruce Funk repeatedly requested an legal professional, however this become denied to him.

Funk turned into an eye witness to the protection checking out with the aid of Harri Hursti and protection Innovation, Inc. He knew first-hand that the machines represented a significant security risk. County commissioners told him he became going to be required to use the machines anyway, Diebold refused to provide a letter in writing indicating that machines it bought weren't used or loaded with inappropriate software; Diebold then advised Emery County that it was going to can charge $40,000 to verify over the machines (the Diebold contract limits them to charging just over $1200 per day, Emery County has just forty machines, and re-flashing all machines with a new gadget takes no more than 10 minutes per computing device). Funk became informed that he would not be authorised to observe Diebold technicians work on the machines, and they had already "visited" his machines whereas he changed into out of city for a day.

prison issuesBecause Funk became denied a lawyer, he did not comprehend that a bit-favourite 1929 legislation in Utah was from time to time used through public officers to browbeat every other out of workplace. If certain public officers gang up and intimidate an additional public legitimate, threatening punitive measures and dire consequences, urging resignation, if the centered respectable tenders even a tentative and conditional resignation, beneath some interpretations it is held to stay. Diebold and the county succeeded in browbeating Funk into temporary submission; he instantly notified them in writing that he had no intention of resigning, so they locked him out of his office.

Black container balloting has assisted Funk in securing certified legal counsel and is underwriting the general public coverage felony movements to defend Funk against Diebold's moves --- sarcastically, with Diebold's own cash, gained in a Diebold false claims suit in California. A $seventy six,000 payment became paid to Black field voting founder Bev Harris, and became consequently contributed as a constrained donation for public hobby litigation. The Diebold funds is now helping help the whistleblower retaliation in opposition t Stephen Heller and moves to help Bruce Funk combat Diebold's retaliation.

In Funk's case, the inability of public note and failure to put his employment remember on the agenda seemingly outweighs the 1929 law, as does the county's refusal to supply him with assistance, failure to enable him to sit in on the private assembly with Diebold attorneys regarding his employment, and insistence that he take accountability for elections held on machines he knew to be insecure.

thus far, Emery County has refused to supply Funk with either a transcript or a tape or their at the back of-closed-doors meeting with Diebold attorneys.

Diebold's habits is extra problematicExperts for the state of California and the state of Pennsylvanie have now demonstrated the seriousness of the vulnerabilities found in Emery County. Diebold changed into cornered by way of Pennsylvania balloting device examiner Michael Shamos, and became given the choice of telling the certainty or lying. Shamos had already sequestered some of the machines and become organized to check it himself it Diebold lied. best after this did Diebold admit to realizing about the safety vulnerability, which is designed into the gadget.

Black container balloting is completing reports with Harri Hursti and as a result with security Innovation (so that they can serve as peer review for Hursti file II). The Hursti file on findings from Emery County will aspect distinct lower back doors developed into the equipment. This report may be released to the public in redacted kind on can also 10. The unredacted version should be provided to federal and state regulators, including the dep.. of fatherland protection's "CERT" alert device.

Letter to Utah officialsHere is a quote from the preliminary tips which Utah officials selected to ignore (other than locking Mr. Funk out of his workplace):


To: Gary Herbert, Lt. Governor of the state of UtahCc: David Blackwell, Emery County AttorneyBruce Funk, Emery County ElectionsEmery County CommissionersMichael Cragun, Utah State Elections Director

Mar. 24, 2006

pricey Sirs,

here's a formal notification that a protection defect changed into found in the Diebold TSx equipment in Emery County, Utah by using skilled protection experts from protection Innovation, Inc. and Mr. Harri Hursti. on account of the severity of the defects, the formal reports are being prepared with satisfactory precision to garner the attention of the acceptable authorities with jurisdiction over this be counted. These authorities, of direction, encompass each and every of you who're receiving this word, in addition to federal authorities in the general area of laptop safety.


The safety problems found in Emery County present probably catastrophic security defects for upcoming elections. The challenge extends backyard of Emery County to additional states. The recognized protection vulnerability appears to be:

1) Persistent, with the means to live to tell the tale through numerous elections;

2) complicated to detect, now not handiest for elections reputable however additionally for security experts and even for Diebold technicians;

3) bendy, in that the take advantage of can selectively have an effect on any particular election, candidate or pollquestion;

four) attainable, in that no password, supervisor access or particular device is required to invoke the take advantage of;

5) intricate to eradicate with any patch, reinstallation, or cleaning technique;

6) likely to be exploited, since the expertise mandatory to exploit the hole are possessed by means of many programmers and the counsel vital to habits the exploit is commonly obtainable to the general public. The time essential to make the most the safety hole is in the latitude of per week�s planning time and 60 seconds for execution.

A pattern of safety failuresThe checking out in Emery County follows one other set of exams by using Black field vote casting in Leon County, Florida, which documented security flaws within the gems vital tabulator and the Diebold AccuVote optical scan equipment.

A pattern of retaliation with the aid of DieboldLike Bruce Funk, Leon County Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho confronted retaliation by using Diebold and different voting groups. Diebold refused to honor its contract with Sancho, forcing him out of HAVA compliance. The handiest other approved vendors then blackballed Sancho, refusing to promote to him.

The Florida lawyer universal is now investigating Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia for collusion and antitrust violations.

Diebold has also been collaborating in orchestrated smear campaigns towards Black box voting and its founder, Bev Harris, the use of fake information superhighway "display names," id theft (posing as board individuals of Black box voting to put up defamation, organizing fake news internet websites smearing election integrity advocates in regularly occurring and Black container vote casting/Bev Harris notably. other Diebold personnel have joined with the Diebold smear squad, which also contains a person from North Carolina, and according to public data received by means of Black container vote casting, have colluded to aspect elections officers towards the cyberlibel.

Black field vote casting, along with a group of researchers, has got files and images which at once tie these retaliatory movements to Diebold. A more distinct article on the Diebold smear campaigns may be posted after the filth has settled on the Diebold contact-screen protection disasters.


comment #36 [Permalink]... cr said on 5/5/2006 @ 8:48 pm PT...

Return at hand count paper ballots! No other way to make them accurate. less difficult is ideal - return to fundamentals. however then how many politicians are there to vote for in this one birthday celebration gadget? :(

remark #37 [Permalink]... barryg said on 5/5/2006 @ 10:12 pm PT...

raw story had their server relocated without their permission and it'll take 24 to 48 hours for it to get again on line absolutely. it's going to assist if the people closest to the server preserve making an attempt to attain it. all the dns servers on the internet ought to study the brand new ip handle.

remark #38 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 observed on 5/5/2006 @ 10:18 pm PT...

Brad #33 - Thanks

awaken...i do know #34 -

It appears that V. Kurt has come right here to convey us some tips regarding this mess. He has uncovered himself as a Republican who is having some 2nd ideas. whereas he can also no longer see things totaly "our method" I consider we should welcome him and his personal abilities of the election technique. I suggest in all fairness americans can conform to disagree. It appears he may have some issues to bring to the desk.

he's not at all like Paul or Ricky who come here simply to stir things up, or Mike J who fills the pages with what first looks to be intelligence untill you have seen sufficient of it and comprehend it's only a bunch of hogwash.

It takes a big man to walk right into a room and say I don't always believe you however here is what I have to present.

remark #39 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills pointed out on 5/5/2006 @ eleven:19 pm PT...

Mr. Bellman, you don't consider the 2004 election changed into stolen. Do you've got an explanation for the discrepancy in Pennsylvania between exit-ballot outcomes and tabulated vote? I agree with it was 6%. Kerry gained the state anyway, however that determine defies all of the laws of chances. it's a mathematicallyimpossible number, truly.

Now, trust that within the eleven battleground states, Kerry's exit-ballot numbers ran neatly forward of his real vote count in 10 of them, the different being a standoff. this is equally inconceivable.

The handiest rationalization given for these discrepancies is that "extra Kerry voters were interviewed" via exit pollsters. it is a non-rationalization, because it suggests there were extra Kerry voters accessible to be different words, Kerry had extra votes than Bush.

The only approach to unravel the dilemma and make feel whereas doing it's to state the obvious: Bush's chums rigged the vote count.

comment #40 [Permalink]... Larry Bergan mentioned on 5/6/2006 @ 1:52 am PT...

Mr. Bellman:Welcome sir! we are able to use the entire aid we are able to get.

however the theft of the 2004 election is awfully complex and never yet understood on account of very shoddy to non-existent coverage. Most people agree that former president Jimmy Carter is an honorable man with an impecable list of election monitoring around the world.

Paste this tackle into you browser and hear for your self what he needed to say about the 2000 election.

thank you!

remark #forty one [Permalink]... Catherine a referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 3:fifty six am PT...

Emlev #forty and Brad #forty one,

there isn't a point placing pressure on the EAC or anybody else until the entire statistics can be found, and all of the possible mitigating elements are compiled into the last report.

BBV could be making bound that the elected reputable in every maybe affected jurisdiction gets this. there is no longer a lot factor making telephone calls or sending emails on this till the full report is finished--at which point BBV could be sending it out.

and you know BBV--they will make sure they do not just ship it however that they also get proof of receipt. No legit might be in a position to fake that they in no way received it.

AFTER the election officials have got it's when it is going to be time for citizen motion and making our views ordinary. This should be chiefly essential in our personal native areas and to local and regional media. (and naturally national media as well--like BradBlog!)

remark #42 [Permalink]... Mickey pointed out on 5/6/2006 @ four:00 am PT...

The site for Bruce Funk's county looks to have already replaced him. I've bought some earlier than and after hyperlinks on my website that display his web page from the Google Cache.

comment #forty three [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman said on 5/6/2006 @ 5:fifty four am PT...

For Robert Lockwood Mills (@#39),

okay, i can see why you believe the way you do. I had the unlucky experience of gazing NEP's people and methods in PA, and i consider their work became relatively shoddy, as a minimum right here. In my COUNTY, it become abysmal. i would not have confidence the rest they bought out of right here. however I refuse to extrapolate beyond my county and state, because that might simply be speculation on my half, and never peculiarly fair. What it DOES DO is make what I've read about NEP's screw ups in other places as a minimum plausible to me.

I agree that the PA exit poll to precise effects swing is huge, along with others, however you must bear in mind that electronic vote casting existed in PA in only only a few counties in 2004, and they no longer only went massive for Kerry when taken as a whole, however went method above Democratic registration in those areas. in short, in Pennsylvania, Kerry's "ally" was the digital vote.

The areas where Bush won and outperformed his Republican voter registration were overwhelmingly lever, punchcard and optical scan counties, places with "documents". definitely, in these few areas where traditionally hand counted paper became used, Bush might practically have been observed to pitch a close shutout.

furthermore, the areas with ridiculously long traces to vote in PA, where many citizens left in disgust, have been among the most closely Republican areas, for probably the most half.

in brief, all of the issues that took place in Ohio that benefitted Bush, could be said to have benefitted Kerry in PA.

In Philadelphia, the place they use the one electronic gadget that i like fairly lots, Republicans generally finish THIRD in many precincts, behind the Democratic AND green party candidates.

comment #forty four [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills talked about on 5/6/2006 @ 7:16 am PT...

Sounds to me as if there became fraud on either side in Pennsylvania (in contrast to in Ohio). but Kerry ran 6% ahead within the exit polls vs. his tablulated vote to your state, so something components benefited him in Pennsylvania (as adversarial to Ohio) did not translate into genuine votes...fairly the opposite, truly.

i'm completely satisfied that votes were flipped en masse, likely at relevant tabulators in preference to in particular person machines. there is no technique to explain a 6% discrepancy without violating the laws of chance...and the elements you cite, Mr. Bellman, would even make the discrepancy bigger than 6%.

Some day this can all come out within the wash. And if any first rate can also be said to emerge from it, perhaps the macho culture of "settle for the results, don't be a sore loser" will go the way of the buggy whip and hula hoop.

now not to beat a useless horse, but we don't practice a " not be a sore loser" standard to overseas governments who rig their elections. On the opposite, we send Colin Powell, Condi Rice, and Jimmy Carter over there to remind Ukraine and Belarus that "diplomatic family members between our international locations can be negatively impacted by using this fraudulent election result." conceitedness. Pure, unbridled American conceitedness. this is all it is. we are able to have nuclear weapons, but other nations can a result of we're the us of america. we are able to rig our elections, however no different country a result of we're the U.S. of the united states, the world's role mannequin.

except, of route, when we invade sovereign countries that aren't threatening us, torture prisoners, spy illegally on our personal citizens, and lie about all of it afterwards.

remark #forty five [Permalink]... epppie referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 7:18 am PT...

Welcome Mr. Bellman. it's great to have more input on the concerns beneath dialogue.

I suppose that each the elections of 2000 and 2004 had been stolen, nevertheless it's not a proven issue. There simply appear to be a lot of indicators pointing in that path.

even though I think it is easy to question whether an election become stolen when the grownup stolen from, Kerry, does not seem to mind. I guess the answer to that could be that the votes were stolen not from Kerry, perhaps, however from voters (assuming they were stolen).

comment #46 [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 5/6/2006 @ 7:21 am PT...

V. Kurt Bellman #11, #24

You observed you are a republican. certainly you know most right here don't seem to be. In an additional thread i noticed awhile ago on this weblog, a protracted listing of "republican" sexual arrests had been listed (link right here), I brought up that these don't seem to be "republican" sexual arrests, these are human conduct problems with no nexus to political affiliation (hyperlink right here). simply so that you comprehend, i admire to maintain things as straight as viable. I don't like unfairness that means.

however I do not pull any punches when it involves settling on this regime as a republican dictatorship. I don't limit the definition of "dictatorship" to the historical idea based upon the conduct of Hitler, Musolini, or Stalin. as an alternative, my definition of a dictatorship is any mechanism or method that thrwarts the will of the americans when they need to make adjustments to their government through their votes ... and for any cause are averted from doing so.

IMO when the president is rubber stamped via a congress of the identical party, and the polls shout that the people don't seem to be with them, and it cannot be changed through assessments and balances, the only component remaining to alternate from a dictatorship mode is an election. And if the govt cannot be changed by means of an election, then a dictatorship is in area. it really is the truth in up to date times like ours as John Gideon, Brad, BBV, and the bloggers here are stating in the analogy to a teach wreck.

i want to ask you what your take is on exit polling. The trolls that put up here go into hysterics when any phrase contains the note "poll", in order that they tend no longer to distinguish the science from the bunk.

Exit poll science offers tools that have been used for a long time efficaciously. correct predictions are the legacy of those tools.

The 2000 and 2004 authentic election effects were at odds with the exit poll predictions for the primary time and for the first time digital voting machines had been used.

these doing the polls, Edison/Mitofsky, were of the ordinary mind-set "it cannot turn up here". This approach is not prepared to entertain any concept of election fraud as the cause of the massive first time discrepancies.

They as an alternative provided the explanation that "republicans had been more shy than democrats" and that is why the large discrepancy. They did not even believe vote fraud.

A study performed by way of 8 Phd's and one MS pointed this out and that fraud have to no longer be dominated out (hyperlink right here). They referred to:

"3. Inaccurate Election effects

Edison/Mitofsky did not even consider this speculation, and for that reason made no effort to contradict it. some of Edison/Mitofsky's exit poll information may well be construed as affirmative proof for inaccurate election effects. We conclude that the hypothesis that the voters� intent become now not precisely recorded or counted [fraud]can not be ruled out and wishes further investigation" (ibid. at page 3, bold brought).

other specialists have observed: "Flaws in any of these aspects of a voting device, however, can result in indecisive or wrong election effects" (hyperlink here).

Edison/Mitofsky and the MSM, who used the statistics, can not endure to even trust that the us can be corrupted in its election strategies.

A place completely at odds with ordinary sense and scientific inquiry, which does not rule out ... earlier than starting the look at various ... any particular competencies result the facts can also element to.

Are you of the same opinion, that the simplest component exit poll discrepancy cannot be attributed to ... is incorrect closing tallies by way of the election officers?

comment #47 [Permalink]... Boo-yah noted on 5/6/2006 @ 7:25 am PT...

running a blog and commenting is all enjoyable and first rate, however what you people have to take into account is that every one of this information will by no means, not ever, EVER see the mild of the MSM.

With that in mind, I agree with that if the Democrats don't take lower back the condominium and Senate in November, americans will both should rise up or shut up. simplest protests and elimination of administration liars by using drive - by the people - will save the nation.

anybody who thinks that the 2006 elections should be any cleaner than 2000 or 2004 is without problems "whistlin' Dixie." The repair is already in and regardless of the valiant and heroic efforts of people like Brad and Bev, there's no approach around the theft of those upcoming elections.

america became hijacked in 2000. don't agree with for a second that they are about to provide it again. We're screwed, been screwed and it be likely going to ought to get an awful lot worse before it gets any enhanced.


comment #48 [Permalink]... Dredd said on 5/6/2006 @ 7:forty nine am PT...

Epppie #47

You bring up a most fantastic observation. One every person should subscribe to.

it truly is, elections don't belong to anybody apart from the americans.

It does not remember no matter if or not a campaigner or an election official thinks an election was improperly performed to the point of thwarting the will of the voters ... what concerns is what the americans believe about it.

It is the same with search and seizure issues ... the constitution says a warrant need to be used and issued only upon possibly trigger.

Some dorks say "i'm not involved as a result of I did nothing wrong and so search me I don't care about warrants". They think they can put off the constitution (4th amendment) effectively as a result of they believe they don't have anything to concern by way of a executive that can search or catch every time it feels like it.

identical with vote casting ... if the people suppose anything is incorrect it does not depend what the candidates or election officials feel ... what the americans suppose is the fulcrum of the challenge.

comment #49 [Permalink]... Mickey observed on 5/6/2006 @ 7:50 am PT...

"We're screwed, been screwed and it be likely going to ought to get lots worse earlier than it receives any improved." Boo-yah

sure, we are, if we do not do anything. all and sundry this is worried about election fraud should still get concerned with their local election manner, and try to have an effect on adjustments. do not just sit round and moan - do some thing!

remark #50 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 7:fifty nine am PT...


I in reality shouldn't have the time to enter a long rationalization of where I stand concerning the NEP's polling disasters, so what i am offering here's a "Reader's Digest Condensed version", with the entire obstacles that means.

if you desire wide version of what I believe, see I are likely to supply a lot of credence to Democrats who opine contrary of what you would are expecting from Democrats, and in a similar fashion centered Republicans who buck the fashion of what you'll are expecting from them. it truly is just the manner I think.

I witnessed first hand what E/M or NEP individuals have been doing in my enviornment, and it makes me dubious of their facts in different places. In my enviornment, the NEP exit ballot takers VASTLY oversampled Democratic precincts, oversampled Democrats inside each precinct, and usually regarded and behaved in a means that might be immediately "off-placing" to any conservative Republican. I EVEN witnessed an NEP exit ballot taker with Kerry/Edwards buttons on, contrary to the requisites given by means of Edison Mitofsky.

All wore shirts boldly emblazoned with the logos of AP and the major television networks. Now the place I live, it is analogous to waving a crimson flag before a bull, when presenting to, say, a Rush Limbaugh fan. I do agree with that there was a huge "refusal to participate" among Limbaugh-esque Republicans, and Limbaugh "owns" the midday to three time slot in my enviornment.

it truly is why I believe the professional "differential participation" clarification of events.

remark #fifty one [Permalink]... Catherine a referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 10:29 am PT...

Kurt, re: the abnormal outcomes in some areas of PA, these may still be investigated inspite of who interestingly benefitted.

Optical scan effects are enormously questionable for a number of factors. just because they use paper does not imply the paper is ever used for a count number--certainly as you have got commented that it be very problematic to get a recount in PA.

comment #fifty two [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman pointed out on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:00 am PT...

Catherine A,

you could have stumbled into certainly one of our "issues" in Pennsylvania. Our election system, at the least so far as investigations and challenges are worried, is a very "adversarial" process. this is, no person from "backyard" should be found to have standing to even look at anything.

If the putative "aggrieved birthday party" would not whinge, nobody else can also. We easily have nothing in location for outdoor oversight. it's analogous to Kerry now not difficult Ohio. i know that different events intervened in Ohio. In PA, now not best couldn't one other party intervene, they'd have no one to intervene WITH.

anyway, it could be dangerous form for Bush to investigate what happened in PA, on account that he gained the election.

there's a fixed rule that applies. simplest the states lost via the loser will ever get investigated. States misplaced via the winner under no circumstances are investigated, often as a result of there's no solution to examine them.

comment #53 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman said on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:10 am PT...



"The 2000 and 2004 authentic election effects have been at odds with the exit ballot predictions for the first time and for the first time digital vote casting machines were used."

You do comprehend, do not you, that both halves of that sentence are demonstrably false?

My county has used digital balloting machines because 1989, and the county two counties west of me has been using them given that 1984.

And exit polls have failed a lot of times in historical past, only one example being Illinois 1960 and 1968, not to mention 1948 everywhere, lest we neglect "Dewey Defeats Truman."

remark #54 [Permalink]... wsok referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 11:eleven am PT...

:OAxis of Evil Bush Chenny RummyVoting Diebold machines ought to supply a person tokeep the axis of evil out of Hauge

comment #55 [Permalink]... Dredd spoke of on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:36 am PT...

V. Kurt Bellman #fifty two

Your lack of response is what I call The Silence of The Goats. Your avoidance of my questions places you in a gaggle we recognize well.

You apparently think that the Phd's who wrote the articles I talked about aren't as ready as you're. You poo poo their explanations with silence.

You do not clarify whether or no longer you read the scientific papers I linked to, and answered as if exit ballot science is a political device.

That isn't the heritage, legacy, nor use of exit polls. but if people such as you continue to make politics of science on your intellect, that may be the style the most effective verify left will go. Use it or free it.

Then we can have individuals such as you in every single place the nation who offer platitudes for these obtrusive technical disasters.

What if Ford, GM, MicroSoft, and other technical entities go that way too? Will we clarify accidents and lots of deaths as "driver problems"?

listen, it's fairly evident that mass produced machines behave the identical all over because of one primary reality, they're the equal. They need to be as a depend of legislations if a look at various goes to be applied to considered one of two of them as representative of the entire line.

What this potential is that the same desktop goes to a spot the place the election officers declare "all is neatly" and the equal computer goes to a spot the place the election officials declare "here's hell".

Yep, The Silence of The Goats is fooling most effective about 33% of the individuals at present ... and heading in opposition t zero.

comment #fifty six [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:forty two am PT...

V. Kurt Bellman #fifty five

deliver hyperlinks to your assertions as we're in a addiction of doing here.

otherwise your assertions have little if any weight.

And also indicate no matter if or now not you study the links I provided, and your innovations on them.

i'm loosing have faith in you since the foundation of your place is "have confidence me", while I ask you to have confidence simplest what there is legitimate evidence for.

and i guarantee you i'm consultant of the practices of Brad and most bloggers right here.

comment #57 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 noted on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:43 am PT...

Catherine a #43 observed:

"AFTER the election officers have bought it is when it can be time for citizen action and making our views ordinary. This might be mainly vital in our personal native areas"

let us know when it is time - i'm waiting to do my part!

remark #58 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 said on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:forty eight am PT...

RLM #forty six stated:

"and lie about all of it afterwards."

Correction: "and lie about all of it before and afterwards."

comment #fifty nine [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills spoke of on 5/6/2006 @ eleven:fifty two am PT...

For Bluebear2: Correction cited.

comment #60 [Permalink]... wsok referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 12:00 pm PT...

Axis of Evil -G Bush,Chenny,RummyVoting Diebold machines has to supply someoneto maintain the Axis of Evil out of the Haugue.Some high Priest of Bohemian Grove

comment #61 [Permalink]... Bluebear2 mentioned on 5/6/2006 @ 12:00 pm PT...

comment #62 [Permalink]... Jane referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 12:03 pm PT...

So, what if we be aware of greater about Diebold being corrupt. We knew the closing election that they were stealing the elections. We knew to make use of the obtainable option and that is Absentee Ballot. The drawback is the tv community owners and their minions desire this corrupt administration to stick with it destroying the Constution and the social and health safeguard nets for all however the 1%ers. They like this corporate fascist govt and want extra of it. So, they wish to have the winner introduced via hour of darkness on the day of elections and need to back us that approach into using the fastest counting strategies - their corrupt digital machines. this manner the absentee ballots aren't getting counted except after the winner is announced, a extremely hard mess to straighten out when the paper ballots exhibit the true winner. You noticed it turn up twice earlier than with Bush II. you're correct to hold pursuing Diebold. however, we want the place to head past that to get reasonable elections. I have stood on streets with the different protestors with my signals for absentee balloting and obligatory ballot hand counting and to make it mandatory that the winner no longer be announced unless the absentee ballots obtained by means of dead night on balloting day are all counted. we are able to wait a couple days or a pair weeks for a honest hand count of our votes. this is a remedy we will afford and have in region right now. no person is working the substitute to these corrupt digital vote countings that i will be able to see. We do not have to do the count number speedy. We simply need to do the count number correctly.

comment #63 [Permalink]... emlev referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 12:06 pm PT...

About alerting different jurisdictions of these newly found problems, do you feel they definitely may not hear, or simply might not hear any reputable observe?

If the former, it seems to me that it would not be so tough to arrange a plan to tell them ourselves.

If the latter, and if handiest respectable notification has any hope of constructing a change, then it be the officials we should drive.

remark #64 [Permalink]... Brad mentioned on 5/6/2006 @ 12:59 pm PT...

Emlev - i might imply pressuring the EAC to do their job and problem an entire notification to all 50 states and to the media would be applicable and an outstanding idea. it's their job. They may still birth doing. I do not care how damn underfunded they are with the aid of the cretens who created them by means of the HAVA bill.

comment #65 [Permalink]... Marty Didier mentioned on 5/6/2006 @ 1:forty five pm PT...

everyone goes to be surprised after they study who is behind organizing what seems to be "deliberate" design flaws. What many have no idea are the connection hyperlinks with all the different scandals and Indictments.

comment #66 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 2:14 pm PT...


What? You desire "hyperlinks" to prove that Pennsylvania electronic voting (in Dauphin County, domestic of the State Capitol) has existed since 1984? Or 1989 in my county (Berks, county seat analyzing, as within the railroad in the Parker Brothers online game)? C'mon. those are records. The equal gadget has been used practically as long statewide within the state of Delaware, which Kerry also gained.

The information are also that exit polls are more desirable than pre-election polls, however are still polls, discipline to sampling error, methodology errors, and particularly in 2004, ballot taker working towards and presentation error.

sure, exit polling received a good deal improved from its inception until about 1998-2000. The 2000 journey (a as soon as in a lifetime screw-up, IMHO) wrongly satisfied every person to throw the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of VNS, which had a stunning first rate music listing, and exchange it with NEP, who blew the job badly.

examine considerably at, performed by way of Mark Blumenthal, a incredibly regarded Democratic pollster.

When the Edison Mitofsky americans themselves admit that there become a few 5% professional-Kerry error, i'm sorry, for me that's online game, set, and healthy. I don't care what number of PhD's dissent.

The uncomfortable certainty is that if your most effective typical is so that you can factor to a gaggle of PhD's that will say a issue, which you could show anything under the solar, because you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting a PhD that has some thing provocative and "out there" to assert. i'm a university grad, too, and a few of the dumbest things ever written got here from PhD's. Sorry, I've taken classes from a few of them.

I told you, I don't subscribe to issues on highly ideological blogs, left or appropriate. they're too tainted to be credible to me. I get ninety% of my tips on election reform from, a site with no apparent political axe to grind. The leisure I get from places like BBV and here, as a result of Brad is aware the magnitude of the train wreck that has already begun, and Bev doesn't widley apply mass political motives to an enormous issue that exists then again.

here is a bloody scandal, sure, certain as shootin' it is. but there is no political "puppetmaster" pulling the strings. Sorry, there just is never. no person from Washington ever called asking me for any entry to my techniques. No middle of the night Karl Rove calls,. Sorry, it simply did not turn up. it's a story of unbridled company greed to rape the taxpayer by way of just a few agencies with shoddy items that work like crap, and are darned complex to run appropriately. They also declined to confide in duped native jurisdictions how tons the "complete cost of ownership" of those pigs is.

by the way, until Brad received it from in different places first, i'm the one which broke the Allentown Morning call story concerning the Pennsylvania Diebold count onto the "choice blogosphere" by posting it on BBV. It ran on, and i grabbed it from there. The Allentown Morning name IS mainstream media. The mainstream media DOES report the story, however they do not "connect the dots" accurately. Neither do those who see a political cause in it all.

it be not about Republicans and Democrats. it's about crappy overpriced items that do not work, and a grasping industry that conned a willingly dull bipartisan Congress into passing a historically bad piece of law - HAVA.

remark #67 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman pointed out on 5/6/2006 @ 2:52 pm PT...


One different brief thought.

I have examine your hyperlinks, and i consider the edition from Edison Mitofsky and mysterypollster.

I consider that the 8 PhD's and the MS missed the exact problem. It turned into not the "reluctant" Bush voter that became the problem, it turned into the adverse Bush voter that turned into the difficulty.

it's now not that Bush voters had been "shy" to make use of the notice you posted past, however rather the Bush voter who would likely have advised the NEP poll taker to go "have relations with" him or herself. I even have yet to examine any scholarly record that handled that eventuality.

i am no Christian appropriate winger, I don't know in case you'll ever find a extra secular man than me, but i do know a fine many Christian conservatives. many of them would now not lightly cuss out an additional human being, however a few of them may throw precisely that treatment at an exit poller.

do not underestimate the venom that appropriate wingers shop for any person linked to the mainstream media, particularly the big 3 television networks.

remark #68 [Permalink]... Larry Bergan stated on 5/6/2006 @ 3:16 pm PT...

to assert that Democrats have carried out as an awful lot as Republicans to be certain we will on no account recognize our votes are counted is nonsense!

This "he observed, she referred to" Fox news tactic is making us loopy!

comment #69 [Permalink]... Brad spoke of on 5/6/2006 @ four:36 pm PT...

Catherine A #forty three referred to:

there isn't any point putting power on the EAC or anyone else except all of the statistics can be found, and all the possible mitigating elements are compiled into the last document.

I respectfully disagree, Catherine. The EAC (chiefly now that *any* of this cloth is standard!) need to be flying in like the FAA does after a aircraft crash. They should still be leading the style at now not only investigating what's going on here, however making certain that each voting jurisdiction in the country is aware about the issue every step of the way. particularly with simple elections occuring *now*.

sure, the extra info they've later, might be great, and they may still be pounded on even *extra* at that factor in the event that they don't take motion.

but it's excessive time they in fact *do* whatever thing at the EAC, which was formed with the aid of HAVA and which had achieved well-nigh *nothing* considering then.

That despite a necessity for them like certainly not before, ironically satisfactory, *because* of the creation of HAVA!

comment #70 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman observed on 5/6/2006 @ four:58 pm PT...

Brad, (@#69)

I agree totally with that. I consider the EAC need to be on this "like white on rice", however for whatever thing cause, they don't yet see their role during this, curiously.

I've in my opinion met two of the 4 existing EAC Commissioners, and the one who left lately. The difficulty I see with the EAC is that they see themselves as some scholarly clearinghouse of advice, and never as any a part of an enforcement or mitigation service.

I consider there are two explanations for that. The NASED organization is on checklist that they believe EAC has to be phased out after HAVA funds are disbursed, so that they are "cowed" by way of that, and the Congress hasn't precisely been making EAC ongoing funding a high precedence. Heck, Congress has essentially been starving EAC to dying from the "get go". That tends to make an organization now not true willing to stick its neck out.

We may just ought to have faith Dr. Shamos and PA SoS Pedro Cortes' group on this. Cortes "gets it", as does invoice Boehm, his coverage Director (who i could simply guess is the supply in Harrisburg Bev has been speaking to).

We're probably going to good fortune out here. There are not any Diebolds in may 9th states, and if Cortes, Shamos, and Boehm believe that they can guard PA with the aid of can also 16, I are inclined to accept as true with them. William Boehm in PA W-A-A-A-Y receives this. he's been predicting the dying of the brand new DRE's for years now. He comes without delay from the Democratic caucus of the legislature. If there is a way that these machines might maybe flip an election for Republicans, and bill Boehm is made aware about it, bill Boehm will expose it. I actually have scads of respect for invoice. He won't help you down.

This is never in the arms of any reactionary Republicans any longer (Florida, Ohio, Utah). "The mounties" have arrived. be aware, PA Gov. Ed Rendell was a chair of the DNC for awhile. These individuals in cost at PA SoS are Ed's boys. They've bought your lower back.

remark #seventy one [Permalink]... Dredd noted on 5/6/2006 @ 5:03 pm PT...

V. Kurt Bellman #66, #sixty seven

No hyperlinks.

Why am I now not stunned?

trigger you're so crammed with shit you are a Goat.

Which capacity you can't stick it to us because we know about the Silence of The Goats. We do not supply traitors a trophy right here. however you do qualify for the

Get returned to the 33% that believe your bu$hit, cause you are losing bleeps right here.

we are for the usa and do not respect your flag of ameriKKKa!

remark #72 [Permalink]... Catherine a referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 5:13 pm PT...

Larry Bergan #sixty eight: "to say that Democrats have finished as a good deal as Republicans to make certain we'll in no way understand our votes are counted is nonsense!"Have a read of Black field balloting (attainable free online here; scroll down and particular person chapters are listed on the right hand aspect). while the successful aspect may additionally differ, each main events have engaged in a whole lot of unethical practices.

Have a look at states like MD, the place the Democratically-controlled Senate lately voted down proposals for hand-counting paper ballots, although the proposals were supported unanimously via the MD condominium and the Governor.

i am not aware about any legislator (Democrat or Republican) who has urged inspection of the machines with which they had been elected. Michigan, with Democratic strongholds, is probably the most obstructive of anywhere in the us of a regarding responding to FOIA requests, from BBV's journey.

Democratic celebration leaders supply lip carrier but they're no longer facilitating the variety of investigation or reform that is required. They aren't helping transparency. one of the totally questionable election outcomes were in polling districts that favored Kerry and used optical scanners.

it be somewhat possible that the Republicans might also had been greater a hit in the usage of a combination of tactics together with disenfranchisement and "artistic use of technology" but neither important celebration is making it less difficult to get factual records.

The burden of proof is inappropriately placed on voters to show fraud happened. As Kurt Bellman has stated on a few posts at BBV, election officials over a long time were working within a device that presumes that elections had been conducted adequately. carriers, election officers, judges and elected persons have all blocked citizens' capability to carry out investigations, get a recount, legally problem an election influence, or take a lawsuit. These restrictions make it difficult to collect the proof of fraud that is required to flow muster with election officials who through default are assumed to be equipped and innocent.

it be vital for residents to collect facts as a lot as viable of their own local enviornment, corresponding to following the information during this put up for staring at upcoming elections and gathering facts.

remark #73 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman noted on 5/6/2006 @ 5:sixteen pm PT...


what's the colour of the sky to your world? Man, if i used to be carrying around all that venom, I do not know how i might be in a position to draw breath.

Geez, man, so what happens when the pendulum swings again and Democrats take control again (as WILL take place)? how on earth will we ever are living as one nation once more?

can't the venom be diluted? What has took place right here?

comment #seventy four [Permalink]... Dredd mentioned on 5/6/2006 @ 5:39 pm PT...

V. Kurt Bellman #73

Venom? do not tread on me!

you are an election legitimate. you're employed for me, and all americans.

Republicans appear to feel we work for them.

hear, you're the wrong way up and we're going to kick you so hard in the ass your shoulders will hurt because the toe of our boots are going to be lodged there until your leaders are in penal complex.

You do not galvanize me troll. you're unaware, unprepared to serve the americans, and are only too fucked up with republican dictatorship jargon.

FLUSH YOU!!!!. i'm achieved with you ...

comment #75 [Permalink]... Catherine a spoke of on 5/6/2006 @ 5:44 pm PT...

hi Brad,

Re: #sixty nine it would be first rate if the EAC had been taking a more active position all along. they have been sidelined by means of their "masters" (delays in being deploy, not given satisfactory funding or team of workers, lack of readability as to their authority to take action).

i used to be simply speakme about a day or two of difference in timing. I don't know what the EAC can do with out first seeing Hursti/protection Innovation's report. To mobile them before they've even obtained it'll make them greater mindful that there are concerns, however they might not be able to respond in any meaningful method.

in case you think it could assist to make sure the EAC comprehend we feel they may still be paying more attention, i will see that element of view. if you suppose the EAC may still be entreated into untimely motion for PR cost while not having received the report, I don't think that might be valuable.

What can be your favorite result from contacting the EAC now, before they acquire the record?

remark #seventy six [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 7:10 pm PT...

hi there DREDD, you insufferable idiot!,

i'm a non-public CITIZEN, jerk. I do not be just right for you even a tiny little bit! The adult who has the job I USED TO HAVE got here there from being a DIEBOLD earnings REP. k? earlier than that, she labored for yet another DRE maker. you love that improved? concept so.

You want hyperlinks, Jerk? ok idiot, listed here are some links. DRE's as long in the past as 1980 were used by 2.3% of voters. See the CalTech/MIT document at:


The chart is on page 5. enough of a hyperlink for you, jerk?

Now about the so-calle dinfallibility of exit polls. See:

there is a lot of hyperlinks there.

from now on ridiculous questions, you moron?

remark #seventy seven [Permalink]... Bluebear2 stated on 5/6/2006 @ eight:15 pm PT...

comment #78 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills referred to on 5/6/2006 @ 9:14 pm PT...

When americans get nasty to the aspect of childishness on Bradblog, we all endure.

comment #seventy nine [Permalink]... Bev Harris noted on 5/6/2006 @ 10:47 pm PT...

concerning sending advice all over and to the EAC too --- Catherine is right. A day or two's change might not trade the rest.

There become a protection breach. assistance become despatched around by means of an individual within the U.S. scientific community to a listing of others who had no business getting this yet. Worse, the counsel contained an error.

Now, let's look at truth vs. leaping on a bandwagon and simply muddying up the water:

- There are two states that have primaries subsequent week, Nebraska and West Virginia. each are ES&S states. If any person has guidance that any area in either makes use of Diebold, let me understand, however I do not believe it is the case. for this reason, charging around relaying tips that I already comprehend consists of inaccuracies, with the purpose that "primaries are this week" really does not make experience.

- On may 16, this protection alert applies to certain places in Pennsylvania and to Jefferson County, Kentucky. Pennslyvania has taken steps to mitigate one of the problem however not all. Jefferson County Kentucky will be contacted by means of Black box vote casting and/or different authorities with the correct counsel this week.

Even Michael Shamos doesn't have full tips yet. I requested him a question on one of the vital more minor, however greatly strategic, type of vulnerabilities and he had no idea. There are numerous lower back doors, no longer just one.

- Now, as to states apart from Pennsylvania, there is an issue. The tools to in fact cope with this are unavailable, even in Pennsylvania, so simplest partial measures can also be taken, and even those basically rely on religion in Diebold. but also, Michael Shamos has abilities and tools attainable that aren't attainable at all to most different states at this time, and i don't know if even the EAC can really help --- even if it desired to settle for that accountability, which it would not. not all states have the aggregate of legal guidelines and balloting machine administration that may tackle this very right away.

- additionally, the actuality is, even the machines in Pennsylvania --- even after Shamos implements the fix --- nonetheless can not definitely be relied on, because of the opportunity that they had been compromised with one of the crucial different returned doors earlier than Shamos got to them. His fix is barely dealing with one a part of the vulnerability --- a significant part, but if the machines had been already compromised the usage of one of the crucial different vulnerabilities, what he is doing does not an awful lot count.

- The gruesome truth is that these machines can not be made relaxed at present, or likely even before Nov.

definite steps will also be taken, however they do not handle some ultimate issues. And within the end, the machines can't be made protected in any respect except a lots greater difficult and time consuming repair is used, and even then, there are nevertheless going to be tips on how to steer clear of even the complete healing path.

They should not be used.

They probably can be used anyway as a result of "or not it's political" --- an unacceptable cause.

additionally, there isn't any make sure that the TS-R6 machines utilized in Georgia and Maryland have any restoration course purchasable at all.

And Diebold is lying concerning the whole factor (once again) anyway, so it be (once more) complicated to in reality resolve the difficulty, because it probably can't be executed in less than six months devoid of Diebold. and perhaps no longer with Diebold either.

i can think of 1 solution to get round this entire mess. it will can charge Diebold about $forty million, but is conceivable earlier than November and eliminates the entire complications with the touch-monitors and most of the issues with gem stones and the memory card.

It won't ensue. "it be political." And --- as typical --- we have half the U.S. scientific community operating away with the ball saying "or not it's political" and "this doesn't resolve it but, neatly, you can't have every thing". no one's even requesting real options.

"or not it's political."


comment #80 [Permalink]... Larry Bergan noted on 5/7/2006 @ 1:37 am PT...

Catherine a # seventy two

The cases you cite of democrats now not being cooperative are after the reality and no-one likes to have themselves audited, however what i was pondering of when I posted become the incontrovertible fact that all the democrats in congress expediently voted for Rush Holt�s bill to require paper ballots and the republicans delayed except it changed into too late. Tom lengthen killed the chance of anything happening.

universal, the republicans are stealing and �profitable� the elections within the twenty first century, and it�s silly to suppose in any other case but I have no theory why the Democrats voted for HAVA!

remark #eighty one [Permalink]... Larry Bergan noted on 5/7/2006 @ 2:27 am PT...

Gee, everybody began out on this thread as Mr. Walker and now they�re Mr. Wheeler!

Mr Bellman:

Please forgive our side, we are those who've worked VERY hard with no pay and have each intent to agree with that we are being robbed on the voting booth.

You say that you just are likely to accept as true with individuals who criticize their personal facet. I do too! for five years, one hundred's of extraordinarily good conservative americans have sounded sirens about George Bush�s variety of governance. Nothing from the Nixon period even comes close!

I started to read a post on, about Mark Crispin Miller. the man who runs the weblog (Mark Blumenthal) whom you trust, refered to Mr. Miller as a �blogger�. Mark has written a couple of neatly researched books and that appears disrespectful to me. americans on my aspect of the isle are used to being trivialized, however I suppose this is over the top!

I wouldn�t accept your rationalization that Republicans who were mad on the media didn�t vote on the exit polls if it came from a twelve yr old. Are you in fact announcing that whatever thing like that came about nation extensive? if you think REPUBLICANS are mad on the media, be sure you look at the mobilephone I broke one evening trying to get them to cover the rest about the Diebold TRAGEDY this is threatening our lifestyle!

This isn�t just about grasping agencies attempting to make a profit by way of getting executive contracts. If that�s all it was, the damn things would work slightly! The different items made by using Diebold work flawlessly. Republicans don�t appear to care provided that they win the football game!

comment #82 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills said on 5/7/2006 @ three:10 am PT...

For Larry Bergan and V. Kurt Bellman: To imply that Republicans failed to confer with exit pollsters as a result of they dislike the media, thus a 5-1/2% discrepancy between exit ballot consequences and tabulated votes in 2004 is believable, is folly. look at Florida.

Exit pollsters requested the equal voters, "Whom did you vote for in the Senate race?" Their polls called the outcomes inside 1/2%! that they had it as a statistical tie, and Martinez received via a hair...within the margin for error. If Republicans have been indignant at the media, it would have proven up there, would it have? would not Castor were ahead via three points in the exit polls, as Kerry became? Did angry Republicans refuse to focus on the presidential race with exit pollsters, yet gave honest answers when it came to the Senate race?

I believe you will agree that is ridiculous, Mr. Bellman. As are the entire other pathetic excuses we have now been offered by Mitofsky and his ilk.

comment #83 [Permalink]... Dredd spoke of on 5/7/2006 @ 3:37 am PT...

V. Kurt Bellman #seventy six

Gosh V, decent for you. Let a few of that steam out. It does not aid your argument notwithstanding.

I consider it turned into a few yr ago when a different troll got here here and noted to the unqualified fellow Mark Blumenthal you also cite to.

He has labored in opposition t a masters, but now not in the self-discipline at difficulty.

you're quoting unqualified americans and i am quoting Phd's who specialise in the container at challenge.

Your yelling at being outed doesn't add mild it most effective adds heat.

The follow of political faith is your issue ... be sure you be working towards political science based on exit ballot science.

You were debunked. It isn't very own, it's hardball.

comment #84 [Permalink]... Catherine a pointed out on 5/7/2006 @ 6:23 am PT...

For rather a while I followed the targeted discussions on secret Pollster. I realized lots about polling. visitors to the website learned an awful lot from one a further; Kathy Dopp et al better their own model on account of the discussion on that website and somewhere else.

I do not consider Mark Blumenthal's conclusions. Edison/Mitofsky's facts dominated out the "reluctant responder" speculation, now not any person's interpretation of them. RLM's point in #82 is smartly taken as well.

Disputing an interpretation in accordance with the letters in the back of somebody's name is not sound reasoning. I disagree with Mark Blumenthal as a result of his concepts and analysis don't fit the information--now not on account of levels that he does or does not have. I suppose the analyses of Dopp and others are more suitable, and that i admire their willingness to normally revise and Excellerate their work. I don't choose their conclusions on account of educational credentials; the work may still stand or fall on its own merits, regardless of the levels, adventure or acceptance of the people. I suppose Dopp's analysis represents a extra thorough and accurate evaluation, and is according to the real records, whereas Edison/Mitofsky's is not.

although I do not trust Blumenthal's conclusions I have no basis for disbelieving Kurt's very own observations in his personal native area. He has already proven himself to be an election director who turned into willing to publicly tackle inequities, despite which party benefitted. If Kurt personally witnessed a lot of over-sampling in Kerry-dominant areas, it's a beneficial observation. i would not always count on that this changed into the case all over the place, youngsters, and i don't believe it addresses the extent of the polling inaccuracies.

Calling somebody a troll since you disagree with them is inappropriate. everyone has a appropriate to their opinion--however they have got biases as a result of their personal background. there's no excuse for rudeness. disturbing a person provide a link to an simply-ascertained reality after which name-calling once they do not automatically oblige is under the belt. continuing abusive habits even after links were supplied seems even more inappropriate.

i'm hoping Brad removes one of the vital feedback with own assaults, or at the least removes the attack portions of posts. It brings down the total blog.

comment #eighty five [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman mentioned on 5/7/2006 @ 7:fifty four am PT...

expensive Mr. Bergen,

thanks on your reasoned response. And thank you for now not being one of these individuals who always says, "link, please." Tp me, that is moronic at ultimate.

And for first rate reason. a whole lot of what's on the net contradicts whatever thing ELSE on the web, and they both have hyperlinks, so what is the cost.

however the larger reason is that there's SO an awful lot greater off the internet than on it. Most of what I make a contribution at BBV is from the Pennsylvania Election Code, now not one be aware of which is on the web, to my talents.

however it is beside the aspect YOU made. You asked, or mentioned:

Quote:"Are you really saying that whatever thing like that occurred nation large?"

relating to Bush voter hostility to exit pollers.

yes, Mr. Bergen, it really is precisely and precisely what i am announcing that I consider happened. And here is my rationale. both Rush Limbaugh, and Shaun Hannity, were telling their minions to do just that. remember, their listeners had been nonetheless hacked off in regards to the quite issue. precise rightwingers notion that the mainstream media became an extension of the Kerry campaign, and by the way, THEY nevertheless DO feel THAT.

you have got your official gripes with the MSM. I do not push aside them for a nanosecond. you're correct about their being a part of a conspiracy of silence on the Diebold difficulty. I do not take into account it....yet. My handiest guess (and that is the reason ALL it is) is that the MSM doesn't need to be viewed as being responsible for discouraging people from going to vote.

gazing this story unfold, and the way the MSM treats it, could be some riveting political theater. I consider issues will get more suitable. Diebold needs badly to be thrown beneath the bus if even half of what we're listening to turns out to have "legs".

I do not dangle out hope for this ever being the lead story on the television network information even though, since it cannot be quite simply summarized in 40 seconds. maybe a half hour or hourlong investigative demonstrate may additionally grab onto it though.

remark #86 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills spoke of on 5/7/2006 @ eleven:17 am PT...

Mr. Bellman: I trust you that this demand for hyperlinks to help each observation is silly.

i am a historian. My first published booklet became on the Lincoln assassination in 1994. A historian i admire very tons is Michael Kauffman, writer of a latest publication on John Wilkes sales space. I do not agree with Michael on every little thing, but he makes the element that previous books on the assassination (and on many different old themes) have been unsatisfactory because historians without difficulty repeated one an additional's error.

academic historians (this is a semi-oxymoron) have an obsession with footnotes. every observation ought to raise the imprimatur of someone else's research, not ever intellect that stated research is often comfortably the flawed history written by using a further historian.

equal with this "hyperlinks" business. Who says the hyperlink makes any experience? It should be would becould very well be a link forwarded from a person else. This might sound smug, but i might somewhat have faith my very own judgment and instincts than someone else's. I might possibly be wrong at times, but at least i know the place the theory originated.

remark #87 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman noted on 5/7/2006 @ 12:26 pm PT...

despite the items that we can also on occasion disagree upon, Mr. Mills, I consider you are a pretty good an decent man.

you're a person from which i'd want to study more.

I have not yet develop into satisfied that the 2004 election changed into stolen (other than the undeniable fact that GWB probably would not have been on the ballot - primary events don't do Adlai Stevensons any longer) , however the evidence receives slowly extra compelling as time goes on.

These Diebolds are a major stinking problem. The bloody chutzpah! however remember, in 2004, Diebold turned into handiest in 2 of Ohio's 88 counties, and not with DRE's, however with OS's. (sure, i know, there are issues aplenty there, too.) And the more I learn about what Blackwell did, the greater it violates the scent examine.

Mr. Mills, I need you to know that in 2004, Secretary Cortes sent state "monitors" to every one of PA's 67 county election workplaces, including the one I ran. Most counties screamed bloody murder. They saw it as an infringment on their county sovereignty over elections. I, too, had questions about what they would be trying to find, but I welcomed them. They were a useful useful resource. When "crap came about", as it frequently does in large elections, I had first hand witnesses representing the "other party" from mine, who could be caught appropriate to me, to witness how we dealt with issues.

My county is a special area. we're the simplest jurisdiction within the u.s. not lined by way of section 203 of the balloting Rights Act it's required to provide bilingual substances through a court order.

We took, and my successor takes, the insurance plan of our citizens' rights very significantly. We're weird. We INVITE scrutiny. We want to show off. We cover nothing.

And when both birthday celebration pulls crap in my county, the election office has at all times smacked them down. They did it earlier than me. They did it while i used to be there. and they do it nonetheless. Do our precinct election workforce still screw up occasionally? Hell sure they do. however we all the time attempt to make everyone entire.

i'm amazed and dismayed that some elections workplaces in some localities and states do not work that manner. And so long as i will be able to, I need to do what it takes to get more individuals there extra commonly.

the first step is to encourage the PA SoS office to carry on conserving on, and never let this Diebold component slip away.

once again, thanks, first rate sir.

comment #88 [Permalink]... Shannon Williford said on 5/7/2006 @ 12:forty one pm PT...

Thanks Mr. V. Kurt B.,

For jumping into the fray and explaining your positions as a former election respectable well. I are likely to suppose you're not exactly on target with the exit poll "shy Republican" theory.

If Limbaugh and his gang have been telling their folks to ignore the pollsters, good enough. i'm sure that was some kinda Republican speaking factor to help confuse the subject for lots of individuals, however above all for Republicans. I have definitely heard that argument from a number of them. I noticed assistance refuting the "shy Republican" claim on the country wide Election Reform conference remaining year in Nashville. The tips presented seemed to indicate that, if anything else, Bush voters had been more more likely to trumpet their vote.

I consider the exit polls being relevant on senate races but now not on the presidency race would inform people anything. I consider the undeniable fact that our govt believes in exit ballot science adequate to demand new elections in other nations should also inform us something. i'm now not disputing what you noticed personally in PA, I comfortably suppose there are decent motives to look at an even bigger photo.

No matter whether one believes the '04 presidential race changed into stolen; I believe we can all agree that we should move ahead to make the "train damage" much less deadly and, we hope, to steer clear of future teach wrecks. That mentioned, if we ever discover anybody who will also be prosicuted and convicted for election fraud, i'm hoping we throw 'em under the penal complex.

As an American voter, I thank you in your service as an election reputable, and that i thank you in your reasoned opinions and potential to accept as true with counsel and alter opinion.

Please forgive some of us who can get fired up by way of this concern, as we have been working it feverishly for at the least a year; usually with out pay and with little encouragement apart from from each different.And if you come to Alabama, welcome to the South.


comment #89 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman pointed out on 5/7/2006 @ 3:05 pm PT...


Been via Nashville. mind-blowing region.

I frankly have no idea why we hang our hats on exit polling anywhere where motive to suspect the reasons of the pollsters may be a controversy. I don't consider in exit polls a good deal at all. I simply re-read most of the articles on mysterypollster once more nowadays, and i am extra convinced than ever that the problem became the polls' methodology.

I do remember when Steve Freeman of Penn, who has NO credentials in this enviornment of inquiry (sorry, this is a truth) first got here out with his paper's first edition. I remember considering, "How did those exit polls get THAT close?".

In my state, Kerry received with the aid of about 2%, relatively close, however we now have viewed nearer. in the very same election, Arlen Specter (R) won with a historic landslide for Senate, and Bob Casey, Jr. (D) won with a historic landslide for State Treasurer. One election - three widely distinct outcomes. that is Pennsylvania. And all this changed into achieved with election hardware and application that hadn't modified in decades, aside from Philadelphia, who had just put in Danaher 1242's in 2002. And there, Kerry outperformed even his most positive predictions.

but this one will blow your intellect - in 2003, we had a "Vote for three" race for superior court docket (second highest appellate court docket). The margin between third (elected) and 4th (now not elected) came all the way down to 28 votes statewide, out of tens of millions cast. THERE turned into NO STATEWIDE RECOUNT! IT became quite simply not possible TO DO at that time below legislations.

yes, the losing aspect did file for specific recounts in particularly Democratic precincts to get a couple of greater absentee ballots forged, however there was no legislations at that time that would enable a statewide recount below any instances. Now we get one if the margin is below 1/2%.

The aspect is - elections are bizarre here. strange stuff happens the entire time. If ever PA is the "last state standing" in a Presidential race, the complete nation's gonna be handled to an entire lotta "What the f---?"

I spent actually weeks explaining to out-of-staters stuff about our election code in Autumn of '04, when we have been a "swing state". people may not keep in mind what goes on here. Our code is many lots of of pages, and most of it is only stupid.

comment #90 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills observed on 5/7/2006 @ 3:fifty nine pm PT...

Mr. Bellman: Do you understand what you may have just mentioned?

"Elections are bizarre here. bizarre stuff occurs all of the time." That is never suitable, rattling it!

to your prior submit (response to me), you talked about "we(Pennsylvania) take the insurance plan of citizens' rights very critically." Forgive me, however I can't rectangular that observation with "elections are weird right here, ordinary stuff occurs all of the time." it's an absolute contradiction in phrases. peculiar stuff may additionally not be allowed to ensue the entire time!

I do not like the tone Dredd employs in his postings.he's very opposed, and also you're entitled to courtesy. but i'm with him in spirit, in that he has zero tolerance for statements like "...extraordinary stuff happens all the time." As a citizen, that offends the residing hell out of me. Why does ordinary stuff turn up the entire time? Who allows it to occur? Why aren't the individuals who permit it to take place in jail? it truly is the place they belong. they're public servants, and you and that i are the general public. We're being unwell served.The americans chargeable for this need to be known as to account.

We fake to be the position model for the world. Yet our elections would flatter the Philippines beneath Ferdinand Marcos. they're a shame. Diebold is worse than a disgrace. Election officials are complicit, as are the corporate media and the leaders of the Democrat birthday party, who've acquiesced within the fraud via two consecutive presidential elections.

comment #91 [Permalink]... Dave Morse observed on 5/7/2006 @ three:59 pm PT...


I have at all times voted Democrat. however I should admit one of the vital primary motives I vote is since it is so brief and simple. There is very infrequently a line the place I vote because there are at all times a variety of vote casting machines. but i'm wondering if the rationale there are so many purchasable machines and the time it takes is so quick is because I live in a predominately Republican struggle birthday celebration district.

i was directly suspicious when my election board, a few years in the past, started asking what my political affiliation became. changed into I a Dem, Republican, or unbiased. Why do they want to understand this information?

It just seems evident to me that the manage of where and the way many vote casting machines, regardless if they are digital of manual, can and does have an immense effect on variety of votes that get counted in the conclusion.

Ohio in 04 changed into a particularly obtrusive instance. The Republicans have figured out that in the event that they effortlessly withhold vote casting machines from districts dominated by way of Democratic voters and redirect them to predominately conservative Republican districts the closing votes will be skewed away from the Dems. I imply severely, are you able to think about having to attend 1 or 2 or greater hours to vote?

a part of the factor I wish to make is that although electronic balloting machines ever turn into reliable and faithful, if I live and vote in a predominately Democratic district i could under no circumstances get to vote as a democrat again. there will likely be one computer with a 2 hour line in front of me.

ultimate regards,

Dave Morse

comment #ninety two [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman observed on 5/7/2006 @ four:36 pm PT...

Mr. Mills,

i was a bit sloppy in my use of pronouns. My COUNTY is specially conscientious about our voters' rights. We need to be. we're a near-parity county registration-clever. Scandals get individuals thrown out of workplace right here. Scandals have killed a few political careers right here. So scandal cannot be tolerated. each person is in constant worry of being ousted from office countywide.

The state, when taken as an entire, has some weird electoral legal guidelines. there are lots of "facets" of PA's election laws that exist nowhere else. That makes for what many would see as abnormal tactics.

Statewide, our voters defy regular knowledge. bizarre mixtures of winners are frequent occurances. Strident Democratic union member western PA voters have regularly voted for Republicans from their enviornment, rather than Democrats from the east. it's how John Heinz (relaxation his soul) obtained elected so regularly, and Rick Santorum twice.

moreover, it's well dependent that stridently Democratic Jewish voters pass over to returned Arlen Specter in droves. we have now elected stridently pro-life Democrats, and Republicans that are nearly liberal. this is what I mean by way of weird.

Our state political breakdown is also bizarre. before HAVA, when there have been dozens of distinct systems everywhere the state, the early vote, from the cities would are available in very Democratis. because the evening wore on, the "returned-nation" areas would are available huge for Republicans. greater than a few instances, networks and wire features have called statewide races for one candidate, most effective to need to eat their phrases tomorrow.

All par for the route in PA.

remark #93 [Permalink]... Catherine a pointed out on 5/7/2006 @ 4:56 pm PT...

Dave Morse #ninety one

I agree wholeheartedly. most effective after seeing the problems with the lines in Ohio & other Democratic birthday celebration areas did I be aware my first 2 experiences trying to vote--in both cases they had been on liberal school campuses in a conservative state.

wager what--even with the lever machines, voting laptop distribution may additionally had been used as a political tactic. This under no circumstances befell to me on the time, for the reason that I had no groundwork for evaluation. The lines have been hours long. each and every time after waiting for approximately an hour and a half I needed to go away without balloting. I felt badly because i wished and supposed to vote.

It by no means occurred to me that perhaps the inadequate variety of vote casting machines in my area might were executed intentionally. i used to be oblivious to how issues like this can be manipulated. I not ever wondered the variety of machines or the lengthy traces; I just assumed that this is what balloting become like.

Controlling the distribution of voting machines could be a superb tactic to keep some individuals from vote casting. it's also possible for real mess-u.s.can ensue for non-nefarious reasons (e.g. population grows however there wasn't satisfactory funds budgeted to buy extra machines; regularly occurring incompetence; inexperience; or sloppy planning).

even with the reason behind the shortfall in equipment there is no method the extent of the non-votes will ever be wide-spread, nor how they would have influenced the elction. No investigation can ever retrieve the votes-that-may-have-been. If executed on goal it be like carrying off the ultimate crime as a result of there'll always be plausible deniability.

comment #94 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills stated on 5/7/2006 @ four:fifty eight pm PT...

For Dave Morse: The deliberate shorting of voting machines in Democratic-leaning districts, and abundant deliver in Republican-leaning districts, turned into no longer constrained to Ohio.

I served as a pollwatcher in Bealsville, Florida on Election Day, 2004. Bealsville has a big minority population, and most likely leans Democratic.

From the hole of the polls, traces stretched out to the street. only five balloting machines had been in use, besides the fact that ten had been in use for the fundamental election months previous. oters have been angry, in spite of the fact that most of them failed to suspect that it changed into part of a deliberate plot. each person knew turnout turned into expected to be heavy, yet the powers-that-be (Republican election officers) saw fit to provide handiest half as many machines as had been used for a God-rattling fundamental election!

an honest mistake? No way. The identical situation prevailed across city at the other Bealsville precinct. Half as many machines. And we're asked to trust this turned into a good error on a person's half, although the identical pattern endured all over Ohio and different battleground states.

remark #95 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman spoke of on 5/7/2006 @ 8:20 pm PT...

Mr. Mills, Mr. Morse, and Catherine Ansbro,

I don't brush aside what you witnessed in these states, but in Pennsylvania, precisely the opposite took place in 2004, and continues to this day.

traces are some distance a ways longer in extremely Republican areas than in Democratic areas.

one in every of th ereasons for this is that the two massive cities in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, have big numbers of precincts and extremely few voters per precinct. The closely Republican suburban counties are where huge precincts with large traces succeed.

i'm going to link you to the precinct by precinct returns for my county in 2004. in case you care to, note how the big precincts, Amity Township #2, Spring Township #6, and Cumru Township #2 are fairly closely Republican. The heavily Democratic precincts in the city of practicing have some distance fewer voters. In these heavily Republican precincts, lines of over 4 hours lasted all day.

The link:

each precinct had as a minimum 2 machines, the largest 20 or so had 3 machines.

be careful of generalizing about computing device allocation. In PA, Democrats had a great deal shorter strains.

by the way, i'm hoping DREDD appreciates that I linked this.

remark #ninety six [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman stated on 5/7/2006 @ 8:23 pm PT...

I should still clarify why there are so few machines far and wide. In Presidential years, the PA ballot is short. Our lengthy ballots are in off-yr elections, and additionally, we use a full-face desktop, with all races visible without delay.

The precise bottleneck is getting folks signed in, no longer the vote casting itself. That takes mere seconds.

comment #97 [Permalink]... Larry Bergan talked about on 5/7/2006 @ eleven:fifty two pm PT...

I printed out and delivered this commentary to officials in a meeting at the capitol right here a couple of weeks ago because they pointed out they did not have time for public feedback about the voting subject. It became worth it as a result of I got to shake Bruce Funks hand and tell him thanks. It sums up what I trust is an easy concern.

To All Election officers Of Utah

Former President of the united states Jimmy Carter:

"well i'd say that within the 12 months 2000 the nation failed abysmally within the presidential election manner. There�s little question in my intellect that Al Gore turned into elected president. He bought essentially the most votes nationwide, and in my opinion, he also got the most votes in Florida. The determination turned into made as you comprehend on a 5-four vote on a particularly partisan groundwork by means of the U.S. Supreme court docket, so i'd say in 2000, there became a failure."


five years after that nation splitting choice of the supreme courtroom, the republican dominated congress, on a nation broad and local basis, refuse to take any action with a view to supply the voters confidence in the balloting manner. I don�t care if the new balloting machines are one hundred% correct. It capability nothing, if the voters haven't any means of knowing their votes are being counted correctly!

i'm fully fine that republicans and democrats in Utah desire that right. i will be able to do everything viable to allow them to know that isn't going to ensue! Please don�t blame me for any issues.

basically,Larry Bergan

i will be able to say "fully superb" with confidence because I went out in "crimson" Utah streets and obtained 347 signatures from registered voters and delivered them to the Lt. Governors office with thousands of others.

remark #ninety eight [Permalink]... Catherine a noted on 5/8/2006 @ 1:eleven am PT...

Kurt #ninety six,

Why could not the machines had been disbursed more evently to stay away from lengthy traces? (e.g., 1 machine in areas with a small population, and 4 in areas with giant populations? Or purchasing greater machines so that no person would have lengthy strains, if this was a recurring sample?) become this linked to the PA phenomenon of city unionized voters who are likely to vote Republican? (BTW I actually have first rate chums in Pittsburgh and have viewed this form of vote casting vogue for myself.)

could the unequal distribution (leaving Republican leaning areas brief, resulting in long lines) had been controlled by means of Democratic-leaning officers? in that case, this should still be investigated with the identical rigor as anyplace the opposite happens.

don't Republican voters whinge about long waits?

Why are there fewer precincts in particularly populated Republican areas?

remark #ninety nine [Permalink]... Linda Jean Edwards talked about on 5/8/2006 @ 3:52 am PT...

Catherine A and Kurt V. Bellman appear to work in tandem defending each and every different. I had the misfortune of caring satisfactory about voter reform, or election reform to take a look at BBV someday. For any individual wondering, simply go to and skim one of the latest threads on BBV and you may soon verify exactly who Mr. Bellman is. BTW, the adult who made very terrible feedback to Mr. Bellman bought just a few in return. This category of trade makes no sense. I have made my emotions very clear concerning his nasty comments to any individual remotely liberal on BBV, and that i accept as true with he is quite partisan.Bev Harris looks to be the "precise deal" concerning election reform, and that i hope her work will make a change. The difficulty is that it is awfully, very problematic to keep absolute political neutrality, when the americans in energy (Republicans) have absolutely no rationale to care about ANY form of reform. also, why discredit the myriad suggestions which is attainable on the internet. Articles and pointed out statistics may also be Checked as to their validity; assistance should still now not be summarily brushed aside simply since it comes from our on-line world.Larry Bergan pointed out:"I wouldn�t settle for your rationalization that Republicans who were mad on the media didn�t vote at the exit polls if it got here from a twelve year historical. Are you in fact asserting that some thing like that took place nation huge? in case you consider REPUBLICANS are mad on the media, you should seem on the telephone I broke one night trying to get them to cover anything else in regards to the Diebold TRAGEDY that is threatening our way of life!

This isn�t pretty much greedy corporations making an attempt to make a profit through getting govt contracts. If that�s all it become, the rattling issues would work a little bit! The different items made by way of Diebold work flawlessly. Republicans don�t appear to care provided that they win the soccer game!"

simply wish to say, you nailed it, Mr. Bergan.

comment #one hundred [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman referred to on 5/8/2006 @ 4:25 am PT...


To answer your question, each precinct ought to have as a minimum two machines, in case of a breakdown in one. balloting can also still continue. (Our machines are fully unbiased of each and every other. They are not related to each other.)

developing new precincts in PA is a very costly and time-ingesting technique. For every new precinct to be created or changed requires a courtroom proceeding, weeks and weeks of public hearings, and repeated notices posted within the media and bodily within the affected areas.

extra machines aren't an alternative as a result of each rectangular foot of house within the relaxed warehouse is crammed. including greater machines would now not most effective be high priced for the machines ($6500 a pop) but a brand new warehouse would need to be built and the county is in a fiscal crisis. So all we had been (and are) left with is shuffling the machines as most reliable we are able to. In 2004, I did some shifting to in shape the precise registration. My predecessor hadn't carried out it in 15 years.

I may imply a partisan purpose for not addressing the realignment of precincts so long in my county because Democrats have historically managed the ELection Board, but I don't believe that's it. I think or not it's greater since the process to exchange precincts is so elaborate, time consuming, and expensive, under our laws. exceptionally where there is nowhere secure to shop greater machines.

comment #one zero one [Permalink]... Catherine a observed on 5/8/2006 @ 5:36 am PT...

could PA EDs foyer the legislators to regulate the legislations so that altering precincts would not present such an obstacle?

Is there a tactical political reason behind making changes so impractical? Are the current restrictions in area to steer clear of gerrymandering, or to supply protection to existing gerrymandered divisions?

comment #102 [Permalink]... Catherine a noted on 5/8/2006 @ 5:fifty eight am PT...

Linda Jean Edwards #ninety nine

Defending Kurt Bellman's positions unilaterally? No. Defending his correct to have some extent of view that is distinctive from mine, with out being subjected to identify-calling? sure.

I do not like identify-calling even with the place it comes from. I've pointed this out to various parties. In some prior threads on BBV Kurt apologized when his personal frustration spilled over, and he has centered his activity in learning greater. it's feasible you may additionally not have viewed some of these feedback. You may also have considered a thread the place I focused the feedback to at least one aspect, and can now not have seen different threads where I focused comments on an extra facet. (Or in some instances I did not need to be the one pointing it out given that yet another poster had already done so.) My conversations with Kurt and others right here have the basis of all those old threads, a few of which you may additionally not have considered.

i might be very stunned in case you do not respect that in my questions i'm constantly attempting to find greater assistance to take note Kurt's factor of view, and that I don't hesitate to disagree with it in many situations as a result of my base of adventure is diverse from his. all of us study from the alternate. realizing his aspect of view and researching more about the experiences that led to his element of view does not imply I accept as true with his conclusions. (for example, I stated unequivocally above that I disagree with his aspect of view in regards to the election polls. Did you pass over that? have you missed the activities where I cited that what Kurt has skilled in PA may now not necessarily be what happened in other places? have you ever neglected the activities the place I and others have cited election misdeeds of which he had now not been in the past mindful?)

I guide all and sundry's right to be treated with admire, even when there is a strong difference of opinion. there was loads of bottled up frustration on each side. When this spills out into very own assaults it inhibits valuable exchange of information and opinions.

remark #103 [Permalink]... R referred to on 5/8/2006 @ 6:33 am PT...


You "accept as true with" therefore your little concept of the hostile voter who may not discuss with pollsters becomes...what? Gospel? discuss Republicans being "faith-based mostly."

guess what? I read more than one newspaper account which confirmed, by using facts of previous elections and via breakdown by means of voter registration, that Presidential votes have been siphoned off in majority-Dem districts, in order that besides the fact that children they voted Dem within the rest of the ticket, oddball third celebration candidates in extraordinary numbers obtained their vote for President. It would not take as large a jump as yours to "trust" that here is hogwash and that there was some untraceable clandestine "help" in flipping these votes.

Oh, and these were local papers with reviews that not one of the MSM would touch. but due to you, for calling the attribution of sources "moronic at most effective" I do not have to scroll via my information attempting to find the links it's the MOST fundamental NETIQUETTE to give.

you might have introduced so plenty to the table, right here, being in a position to simply argue on what we *feel* is true, without a pesky sourcing or facts.

comment #104 [Permalink]... Catherine a spoke of on 5/eight/2006 @ 6:59 am PT...

R #103

There were loads of examples of this kind of element. The CA special election the place Arnold Sch. changed into elected become an additional illustration the place there were impossibly weird numbers of votes for impartial candidates. And there was that election in OH (i'm relatively bound) where a little-primary Dem candidate for choose received greater votes than Kerry did, even though she hadn't campaigned at all.

Kurt Bellman is slowly getting an schooling into some of those incidents the place the reliable outcomes have been completely unbelievable no rely the way you study it. sure it's unreasonable to assert each weird election influence turned into brought about by way of fraud--however it's equally unreasonable to assert that none of them have been.

What's unconscionable is the barriers to investigation, and that voters haven't any standing to take courtroom situations or request recounts.

comment #one zero five [Permalink]... Dredd referred to on 5/8/2006 @ 7:30 am PT...

V Kurt Bellman #eighty five

You stated that almost all of what you contribute is "from the Pennsylvania Election Code, now not one be aware of which is on the net, to my advantage."

that is my issue with you and the republican dictatorship. You want each person to depend on what you say, "believe me", and you are outraged at having to supply a hyperlink to the groundwork or help for arguments.

since there are opposite positions, you premise, none of them are helpful, and therefore, you deduct, i'll choose the better one. it's an ideal argument ... ideal circular argument.

Catherine A has the identical idea, that credentials are inappropriate. She isn't relevant. The subject realm we are talking about issues science, now not politics. Science is one of those locations that requires credentials. not effectively opinion.

i might not doubt that Diebold has your and Catherine A's philosophy at coronary heart after they appoint software builders (programmers). It doesn't count number whether or now not they are credentialed and hence equipped, what matters is "will they do anything I say". in case you comprehend the Clint Curtis story you recognize what I suggest.

therefore we now have the FEMA: Fucked Election machine affiliation and everybody announcing "you are doing a heckuva job".

You say "now not one notice" of the Pennsylvania Election Code is on the web. whereas that isn't in any respect proper (link right here), that isn't essentially the most critical component that comes to my intellect once I contemplate your remark.

What comes to my intellect is why have you now not posted that code at BBV?

you'll want to because even if you do not consider in hyperlinks, others do, notably right here at Brad weblog.

We accept as true with it because this is the enhanced way to push very own opinion into the historical past, and the superior technique to push first rate supportive analysis to the foreground.

comment #106 [Permalink]... Robert Lockwood Mills pointed out on 5/eight/2006 @ 7:30 am PT...

with reference to percentages, mathematicians have calculated the percentages against a 5-1/2% discrepancy between exit poll outcomes and tabulated votes at one-in-959,000. here's prohibitive.

The numbers for the Florida Senate race (exit polls vs. tabulated votes) supply the deceive the notion that Republicans had been irritated at polltakers and snubbed them. it be ludicrous to imply that indignant Republicans refused to confer with pollsters about their votes for president however were open and honest about their votes for Senator.

however the strongest mathematical proof that the 2004 election become fraudulent is present in vote-flipping allegations. Youngstown, Ohio is the top-quality illustration, however there are many others. In Youngstown votes were flipped by laptop from Kerry to Bush all day lengthy; here is well everyday, but the arguments have focused on no matter if or no longer enough votes have been flipped to have made a difference in the complete. To which I respond, "Who gives a crap?" The point is, no votes were flipped from Bush to Kerry in Youngstown, and rarely any nationwide. Claims of vote-flipping broke down at something like ninety eight-2%.

One needn't take into account larger mathematics to grasp this could not have been a random happening.Mr. Bellman, you could focus on DRE's all evening lengthy, and that i'm sure you might be an authority on them. that you may talk about your experiences in Pennsylvania, and i'll provide every aspect you might have made. but neither of us can reform the legal guidelines of chance. they're immutable, and had been considering the fact that Archimedes first explained them to his Greek neighbors.

remark #107 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman spoke of on 5/eight/2006 @ 8:50 am PT...


You didn't analyze ge bottom of your own hyperlink, to wit:

"The finished Pennsylvania Statutes aren't yet purchasable on the internet. although, selected portions had been made obtainable and can be accessed by means of CLICKING here. These statutes, even though attainable straight away over the internet, may additionally no longer be the latest law. court docket choices overturning them, later statutes amending them, and a host of other factors come into play when decoding them. they're offered right here as a resource. They may still provide some assistance about the state of the legislations. youngsters, a reliable legal professional, who from other sources will research the legislations to insure what is present, should still at all times be employed in matters of value."

I've reviwed what's on the hyperlink you offered (and thank you for it) but most of what is there is not probitive of a good deal. it is the early sections thst deal basically with mundane concerns. Nothing there on any of what makes PA entertaining - elected pollworkers, now not appointed; well-nigh no technique to get a recount in most circumstances; county sovereignty with little state authority, etc.

in addition a whole lot of what's there is ALREADY out of date, beginning with the sections on compensation and voter registration, each of whch were radically modified on the grounds that this edition.

The branch of State best started publishing a ebook of the Election Code of PA in 2004. until them yuo had to get it with the aid of purchasing it from WestLaw (costs about $50) and is annually up to date with a "Pocket half", so called since it slides right into a pocket built into the lower back binding of the already 800-900 page ebook. Whiel what you linked is advantageous for getting a "taste" of some considerations, the PA Election code it isn't.

comment #108 [Permalink]... Catherine a referred to on 5/8/2006 @ 9:14 am PT...

Dredd #one hundred and five"Catherine A has the identical idea, that credentials are irrelevant."

while credentials have a task to play in lots of professions, they guarantee neither ethics nor competence. They point out nothing about no matter if or now not someone is making sense or no longer. Arguments deserve to have merit other than in simple terms counting on the credentials of their proponents.

in a similar fashion, if somebody with out credentials makes a legitimate argument or produces appropriately documented scientific outcomes they may still not be overlooked on account of an absence of letters behind their name.

Your place makes little feel to me. I supported Kathy Dopp's efforts earlier than she got her Ph.D.--as a result of her reasoning made extra feel to me and since it was extra in response to the records. Do you indicate Kathy Dopp become no longer price paying attention to earlier than she had a Ph.D. in hand? some of her critics tried that argument.

At what point do you believe a person's credentials "satisfactory?" Do then you get into an argument such as, "My institution has a much better reputation than yours so my opinion ought to be appropriate?"

Dredd also commented: "i would not doubt that Diebold has your and Catherine A's philosophy at heart"

Wow--there is a bounce of association there. You appear to be attempting to discredit me by juxtaposing my identify with Diebold using reasoning that doesn't even make sense. enjoyable.

comment #109 [Permalink]... Dredd mentioned on 5/8/2006 @ 12:30 pm PT...

Catherine A #108

No i'm not discrediting you when I aspect out that the scientific arena is one the place credentials are extra applicable than, for example, the artwork world.

This thread is ready utility design and there's a component referred to as desktop science. Diebold definitely cares little for this, they employed no longer only uncredentialled programmers, i.e. incompetent ones, to supply the junk they're hawking to election officials. and people election officers as a result of their lack of credentials in utility and hardware desktop science, are unwilling servants of the junk buyers.

sincere uncredentialed folk can become victims of the junk buyers since the enviornment of advantage in digital voting machines is desktop science. The base line isn't an argument of morality, it is one in every of competence.

if you examine my post you possibly can be aware of that I kept to the context of junk voting application on junk election machines. You wish to go with the flow off into the universe and produce up subjects no longer principal right here.

You referred to "i hope Brad removes one of the comments with personal assaults, or at the least gets rid of the attack portions of posts".

look Catherine, V Kurt turned into most effective venting, so do not come down so difficult on the guy please. When he referred to as me a jerk and a moron he doesn't should be censured and i hope Brad does not censure him.

he's trolling (going in opposition t the nature of a blog's longtime regulars and blogger in chief), and i pointed that out. but trolls are allowed!

I even contratulated long term troll Ricky the previous day on yet another thread because Ricky posted "No more blood for oil". A troll is as a troll does, and ceases to be a troll when the posts exchange in nature. i will welcome Ricky to our blogosphere when he ceases to be a troll. Why not?

In summation, yes Catherine A, credentials are important from time to time and not critical at different instances.

in any case, the observe "credible" is of the credential household, and if one persists in warring towards credentials and links the place they are applicable, they're going to free credibility.

comment #one hundred ten [Permalink]... Dredd observed on 5/eight/2006 @ 12:fifty four pm PT...

V Kurt Bellman # 107

You stated "You didn't look at ge backside of your own link, to wit". smartly, I in reality do not know what to assert. what is the bottom of a hyperlink? Did you imply the backside of the web page I linked to?

I did study that text. It not ever ceases to amaze me how some americans can tell what a person examine or didn't read, effectively by means of taking a look at a hyperlink they posted.

but you resist links anyway ... oh well ... hyperlinks have to be respectable for some thing ... or not it's within the legit HTML code in spite of everything.

whatever, with the variety of good judgment leaping you're vulnerable to do, I nominate you for the Olympic soar Of common sense are attempting outs.

whats up, you averted my leading query once again (in my first put up I asked in case you notion election fraud become certainly not capable of be the reason for exit poll discrepancies - which you dutifully avoided).

In my last (a.ok.a. most recent) submit to you asked why have you not posted these statutes, because you boldly proclaimed that "now not one word" of those statutes have been to be discovered on the web anywhere.

The truth is that even beginner bloggers can search and discover that to be "inaccurate" (i am being high-quality to please Catherine A).

however you as an recommend, a previous election official, and one who most likely desires to be seen as credible, and be regarded as much as, you have not posted the newest and most reliable election statutes.

I asked why now not, because it looks to be whatever that should still be executed. You avoided the query once more and decided in its place to do your avoidance thingy.

Anyway, I have pleaded with Cathering A to returned off from her place that wants to chide you for calling me a jerk and a moron, as a result of I knew you were comfortably venting.

good day, even first rate guys gotta vent once in awhile. that is what sex is for. but you understand, droughts occur.

So recover from it and put up the rattling statutes so people do not need to ask Mr. V Kurt Bellman all these wizard of odds questions all of the time.

good enough?

remark #111 [Permalink]... Catherine a noted on 5/eight/2006 @ 2:31 pm PT...

hello Dredd,

sure, venting allowed as lengthy as it does not get to be simply venting 'cause it truly is boring and people can on occasion get harm.

if you referred to, "he's trolling (going against the nature of a blog's longtime regulars and blogger in chief), and that i pointed that out. but trolls are allowed!" i realized that we use the note "troll" in a different way. that's why I reacted so strongly. I believe of trolls as being folks who're out to unfold misinformation and to deliberately disrupt.

Venting is distinctive.

Partly based on feedback on this thread & elsewhere (about Michael Shamos claiming that no exact election had ever been hacked, or phrases to that effect), I actually have posted "A Bedtime Story for concerned residents." Let me recognize what you consider.

comment #112 [Permalink]... Dredd noted on 5/eight/2006 @ 3:30 pm PT...

Catherine A #111

I read all of your link to a put up at BBV. and i recognize your logical evaluation.

listen Catherine, I even have been a contractor at many a governmental application challenge, and i comprehend of the heaps of CIA and other spook front groups within the US and overseas.

you might now not sleep very smartly if I instructed you every little thing i do know, and don't be aware of.

So lets maintain the dialogue to what i do know ... and do not understand (I just blew my argument didn't I)?

pay attention Catherine, we can't argue or agree ourselves out of our current situation. awesome powers have drawn strains on a map and also you or I, Bradblog, or any person practicing these posts can not exchange what is coming down.

however we will fuse into the universe our own integrity, our own position, our personal stance.

Like some shadow fused into the history granite through a nuclear explosion of those that declare, demand, and kill for the "top-rated place".

i will simplest tell you that I guide and applaud all you at BBV do, all that V Kurt does, towards a fair democracy, and all the rest of us do to battle towards making the will of the individuals a fact. And all we do to resist the dictators who would thwart the will of the individuals.

and that i want you to know, hello, if we don't argue heatedly sometimes, then we are not considering deeply adequate.

remark #113 [Permalink]... Catherine a stated on 5/eight/2006 @ four:27 pm PT...

Dredd: "however we are able to fuse into the universe our personal integrity, our personal position, our personal stance."

it really is magnificently expressed. can we have a BradBlog "quote of the week" or some thing? You get my nomination.

and also you're appropriate that arguing heatedly can be extraordinarily helpful from many perspectives. do not suppose i'm so put off. or not it's a little challenging for me to "examine" appropriately w/o physique language etc. so I are inclined to err on the protected aspect on-line.

remark #114 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman mentioned on 5/eight/2006 @ 5:26 pm PT...


The reply to your question is fairly primary. The PA Election Code is too long, too poorly organized (in Purdon's Title 25), and too internally contradictive in areas to be suitable for handy posting to the net. actually no authoritative source has accomplished it. pieces do exist, and that i'll admit that I had by no means seen the one you linked before.

In training for my impending movement to Alabama, I did some searching on Alabama election law, and located, woe and behold, the whole shootin' in shape is on-line and being maintained for accuracy and currency via an legit supply. My point is - 'taint so in Pennsylvania. Is it as a result of some potent people want to avoid information on the legislation and its expertise protections? Yeah, probably.

Now to your questions:

Do I accept as true with that election fraud turned into under no circumstances capable of be the reason behind exit ballot discrepancies? No, I don't believe that. Fraud is a possibility. however I feel it's a extremely infrequent occurrance. To be rather sincere with you, I cannot work out how we hold our hat on exit polling in eastern European elections. I've not ever viewed a detailed clarification of what deviation changed into followed there. So i am unwilling to purely say, "If we trust it there, we should still accept as true with it right here," It type of depends on the numbers, doesn't it?

" have not posted the newest and most reliable election statutes.

I asked why not, because it looks to be some thing that should still be accomplished."

I agree. I do not possess a replica of Purdon's Title 25. I used mine noticeably for 4 years, and that i am VERY customary with it, however to quote chapter and part would require a run to the county legislations library. I agree it would be carried out, ideally through the Secretary of State's workplace. They, in spite of everything, published a special compilation of it in 2004, and most likely they have the facts info that might permit it to be web published, yet they haven't. if you discover that curious, so do I.

Did I pass over any pending questions? take me back to the fact if I even have.

It appears to me that there are two viable explanations of the exit ballot discrepancy that haven't had sufficien attention. The "incorrect tally" rationalization, which should be completely investigated, and the "adversarial Republican" "conception" which has no longer even been regarded. I really wish I had some historic Limbaugh and Hannity tapes to refer to. I may swear that they had been asking americans to misinform and ignore pollsters.

i hope you additionally agree that NEP needs to tighten up the issues they think they deserve to tighten up. There are two components that confound me, and i'd want to know greater about them. One, they stated an instantaneous relationship between poll taker distance from the ballot and "inside precinct error." Two, they pronounced an inverse relationship between age of the poll taker and "within precinct error". these two have me curious. i might like to recognize greater about these.

comment #115 [Permalink]... Catherine a observed on 5/eight/2006 @ 5:40 pm PT...

"these two have me curious. i might like to comprehend greater about those."

Me too. IIRC the NED refused to release the certain precinct information because it would be their equal of exchange secrets and techniques. This limits the analysis, regrettably. a different street block to seeing what's going on, not to mention understanding it.

remark #116 [Permalink]... V. Kurt Bellman mentioned on 5/eight/2006 @ 6:41 pm PT...

I've about had my fill of the drained old "trade secret" excuse. vote casting computing device makers use it. Pollsters use it. or not it's too bloody "easy"!

Oh smartly, alternate secrets, eh? under no circumstances intellect, then. provide me a stinking ruin, will ya? What can be so damned secret about a sound vote counting program? What? Is the competitor going to assert, "Ohhhh.. you increment the counter via ONE!!?? Wow, we hadn't notion of that.

The aspect is - these items appears fairly intuitive, doesn't it. What may well be so bloody interesting that some other company will be taught from yet another company's product?

Ooops! possibly Sequoia might have realized to position a "voters collaborating" counter on each separate race, as they curiously failed to do. by no means mind.

remark #117 [Permalink]... frazzled referred to on 5/9/2006 @ 9:00 am PT...

Why do they insist on using these damn things? they're a possibility to no longer most effective countrywide protection however our entire gadget of government. any individual who has researched this even a bit knows these leading purpose are to trade the outcomes of elections. They by no means can also be depended on because they're too complex. an easy piece of paper and pen is plenty enhanced. As a software engineer i'm asserting this. besides the fact that they allowed everybody to look at the source code that would no longer clear up the issues because it will also be switched out correct before the election. The entire concept is flawed. This definitely a time the place technology isn't solving a problem that necessary to be solved. If it skill that it takes a day to count all the votes by means of hand then lets try this.

comment #118 [Permalink]... Mike Feeney said on 5/9/2006 @ 5:forty four pm PT...

decent job.

Poster bumper stickers (should still be) printed on the web, everwhere:


remark #119 [Permalink]... EnoughAlready noted on 5/9/2006 @ 9:forty five pm PT...

Brad - I wish you'd host a discussion bet. Mr. Bellman & Mark Crispin Miller re '04 election. that could be enjoyable.

comment #a hundred and twenty [Permalink]... Gina de Miranda pointed out on 7/10/2006 @ 9:53 pm PT...

SOME people IN TEXAS may bear in mind HOW I POSTED daily for three WEEKS THAT THE ELECTIONS had been STOLEN AND TO supply funds TO BLACK container. I feel that it's time to focus on simply how badly the nation has been misinform. In Texas, I spent the total summer time of 2004 registering Hisplanic voters for Southwest Voter undertaking (howdy, you guys still owe me for my charges at southwest...). I registered americans who had no longer voted for two decades that were signing up just to vote Bush OUT!!!!! We had a massive voter turnout. Voters do not continually exhibit up in such big numbers except they are sad.

I labored the polls on election day as well. I discovered few individuals balloting for Bush. very few. I did hear loads of experiences in regards to the machines flipping from Kerry to Bush all day long youngsters. After the elections, I additionally seen that the exit polls were changed radically between 12:00 am and when I bought up at 5:00 am. Kerry had been leading in TEXAS within the high Hispanic counties. I knew that we had been rooked!!! nobody wanted to consider me and it took a lot of pounding to get the aspect throughout.

After the elections, i spotted anomalies at the precinct level that went lower back "several years" that had been very strange. Then i noticed that the outcomes for Bexar County (San Antonio) had been pronounced out on November 2, however based on the excell data on their personal FTP web site, they could not get the results out of the electronic voting machines until 4:30 pm November 3!

Texas isn't purple. i believe that it has now not been crimson for a long time, however someone has tampered with the vote to do away with one of the most premiere lady politicians round, Ann Richardson, and supply Shrub entry to the enormous UT have confidence cash. finally AND here is FOR these OF YOU WHO think THAT BIBLE-QUOTING got THE GOP INTO workplace..Google the censuses on religious denominations within the US. you are going to find that there are not 23 million evangelicals in the entire US. then you definitely will understand why Bush by no means to fund "faith-primarily based" services. He didn't deserve to, the non secular correct become a canopy story.

To find out who really makes these monsters dance, try: or google Herb Mallard and Saud. It is very very sad how completely that we've been bought out. The elections had been rigged because too an awful lot changed into about to be declassified and the timber and different Bandar "retainers" had been about to be uncovered to all and sundry.

It isn't any accident that Ken Lay died when he did...he turned into about to sing about thefts on a scale not possible through either side of the aisle. awaken everyone. VOLUNTEER TO computer screen THE POLLS AND LET'S CREATE A country wide DATABASE the place that you can REGISTER YOUR VOTES through VOTER identification. OR stronger nevertheless, LET'S GET THE SWISS to administer OUR ELECTIONS FOR US. THEY DO THEM ON colored PAPER (AS I have advocated).

Let's kick all of those "incumbents" or should still we call them with the aid of their real names Political service retailers and reverse Papa Bush's removing of the prohibition on international "donations" to our public servants.


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